Nick et al,
"Once more dear friends, unto the breach..."
With LD50 values (that dose which is calculated based on certain not-so-goo
d experiemtal data in experimetal animals to have a calculated and predicte
d exposure level to have killed 50% of the study population):
Are you asking about ACUTE toxicity? LD50's/LC50's/ED50's can basic
ally only deal with this.
There's the old adage that "Dilution is the solution to pollution."
And this is somewhat true regarding acute dose exposures. (
In the far future what we npw consider as landfills will likely be c
alled Mines.) Then sooner or later, dilute it out enough, you c
an dilute derned near anything out to an exposure scenarior where likely to
xicity just plain isn't likely (if you don't believe in the one-hit therory
of carcinogensis which doen't seem to plausibe in most cases).
What I was getting at, was the specific toxicity of a compound. C
yanide is cyanide is cyanide. You want to compare LD50's or LC50s o
r whatever, then the salt can certainly make a difference in the LD/LC va
lues. DUH???? But the basic toxicology of the effective compound re
mains relatively the same. Anyone think that the cyanide ion from H
CN, NaCN, KCN, Ca2CN, etc. won't cause the same poisoning (guess ag
ain if you do, they all will.) The CN- dose that may be obtained
from these various compounds will of course differ based on their chemical
composition, but the poisoning will be the same given a similar effective
dose of CN- ion. The LD50s or LC50s or ED50s of course will vary b
ased upon the species/specific test/end points, etc., but the toxic com
pound, given a proper dose, will have the same toxic effects.
Alan
ahalltoxic**At_Symbol_Here**msn.com
> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:43:08 -0500
> Fr
om: tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**ILLINOIS.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] toxicity questio
n
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
>
> Thanks, Jay. Yo
ur points underscore some of our larger challenges - that people don't unde
rstand their chemicals and the attendant hazards.
>
> I h
ear what you're saying. Toxicity is a complicated characteristic - profound
knowledge of it requires a complicated description.
>
>
I meant to directly ask about LD50 values - I've bumped into the question
, "How carefully do I need to treat my NFPA Health 4 chemical that I am u
sing in small and/or diluted quantities?"
>
> -Nick
&g
t;
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DCHAS
-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Dr. Jay A. Yo
ung
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:20 PM
> To: DCHAS-L
**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] toxicity question
>
> Nick,
>
> Number one, toxicities CANNOT be
compared. If x has an LD50 of, say, 100
> mg/kg and y has a to
xicity of 200 mg/kg, you cannot say that one is twice as
> toxic
as the other because x is toxic, say, to the liver, whereas y causes
> cancer of the epiglottis.
>
> Number two, to
measure toxicities you need some test animals and the
> associate
d resources for the animal care and appropriate laboratory
> obser
vations and conclusions. One can buy these on the open market; the
&g
t; cost is not small.
>
> Number three, just because t
he names are related does not in any way
> indicate that the toxic
ities will be related.
>
> Jay Young
> ***********
************************
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tsiakals, Nicholas John" <tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**ILLINOIS.EDU>
;
> To: <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday
, June 10, 2010 5:30 PM
> Subject: [DCHAS-L] toxicity question<
BR>>
>
> > Good afternoon all,
> >
;
> > How does toxicity compare from one pharmaceutical salt
to another? More
> > specifically, is the toxicity of nore
pinephrine the same as norepinephrine
> > bitartrate salt?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Nick
>
>