Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:59:14 -0600
Reply-To: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Alan Hall <ahalltoxic**At_Symbol_Here**MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: toxicity question
In-Reply-To: <F5D83326DC77FD4EA138E9194D6B28883371E83C9F**At_Symbol_Here**>

Nick et al,
"Once more dear friends, unto the breach..."
With LD50 values (that dose which is calculated based on certain not-so-goo d experiemtal data in experimetal animals to have a calculated and predicte d exposure level to have killed 50% of the study population):
Are you asking about ACUTE toxicity?  LD50's/LC50's/ED50's can basic ally only deal with this. 
There's the old adage that "Dilution is the solution to pollution."  And this is somewhat true regarding acute dose exposures.  ( In the far future what we npw consider as landfills will likely be c alled Mines.)  Then sooner or later, dilute it out enough, you c an dilute derned near anything out to an exposure scenarior where likely to xicity just plain isn't likely (if you don't believe in the one-hit therory of carcinogensis which doen't seem to plausibe in most cases).
What I was getting at, was the specific toxicity of a compound.  C yanide is cyanide is cyanide.  You want to compare LD50's or LC50s o r whatever, then the salt can certainly make a difference in the LD/LC va lues.  DUH???? But the basic toxicology of the effective compound re mains relatively the same.  Anyone think that the cyanide ion from H CN, NaCN, KCN, Ca2CN, etc. won't cause the same poisoning (guess ag ain if you do, they all will.)  The CN- dose that may be obtained from these various compounds will of course differ based on their chemical composition, but the poisoning will be the same given a similar effective dose of CN- ion.  The LD50s or LC50s or ED50s of course will vary b ased upon the species/specific test/end points, etc., but the toxic com pound, given a proper dose, will have the same toxic effects.

> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:43:08 -0500
> Fr om: tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**ILLINOIS.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] toxicity questio n
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> Thanks, Jay. Yo ur points underscore some of our larger challenges - that people don't unde rstand their chemicals and the attendant hazards.
> I h ear what you're saying. Toxicity is a complicated characteristic - profound knowledge of it requires a complicated description.
> I meant to directly ask about LD50 values - I've bumped into the question , "How carefully do I need to treat my NFPA Health 4 chemical that I am u sing in small and/or diluted quantities?"
> -Nick
&g t;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DCHAS -L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Dr. Jay A. Yo ung
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:20 PM
> To: DCHAS-L **At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] toxicity question
> Nick,
> Number one, toxicities CANNOT be compared. If x has an LD50 of, say, 100
> mg/kg and y has a to xicity of 200 mg/kg, you cannot say that one is twice as
> toxic as the other because x is toxic, say, to the liver, whereas y causes
> cancer of the epiglottis.
> Number two, to measure toxicities you need some test animals and the
> associate d resources for the animal care and appropriate laboratory
> obser vations and conclusions. One can buy these on the open market; the
&g t; cost is not small.
> Number three, just because t he names are related does not in any way
> indicate that the toxic ities will be related.
> Jay Young
> *********** ************************
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tsiakals, Nicholas John" <tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**ILLINOIS.EDU> ;
> To: <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday , June 10, 2010 5:30 PM
> Subject: [DCHAS-L] toxicity question< BR>>
> > Good afternoon all,
> > ;
> > How does toxicity compare from one pharmaceutical salt to another? More
> > specifically, is the toxicity of nore pinephrine the same as norepinephrine
> > bitartrate salt?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Nick
> >

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