Another sideline note (expanding Debbie's comment mentioning that it might be related to a cross-connection prevention requirement) - on the subject tangent about eyewashes that "cannot be plumbed" which mentions project managers/engineers/code and "possibility of contamination"... Sounds like an excuse... I'm sure both (eyewashes and showers) can be plumbed - if you have a source of properly isolated 'domestic water' or 'potable water' nearby... (the supply pipes that serve stuff like drinking fountains, kitchen areas, restrooms - sinks/showers etc.). Hence the appropriate recommendation you just received - that an eyewash be plumbed to the same source as an emergency shower. (Also agree that, where possible, tempered water sources are preferred...). Eyewashes and emergency showers ('per plumbing code') would need to be plumbed to "domestic/potable" water source - and that simply means there is some type of vacuum breaker or other appropriate isolating device installed at the right spot in the supply water line(s) for the building or floor or general area. This separation "by vacuum-breaker" of supply water plumbing should be done from a point where said domestic/potable water line(s) diverge from any being connected to your lab sinks/floor-sinks/shops/other locations where the possibility of "suck-back" contamination of the water supply line 'might' occur... jp Dr. John Palmer Safety & Security Director Chemistry & Biochemistry UCSD - 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0332 (858) 534-5906 jpalmer**At_Symbol_Here**ucsd.edu -----Original Message----- From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Clark Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 7:09 AM To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] FW: Lab safety showers And to continue with Rob's statement ... so if you need to install the emergency shower plumbing, then you may as well install the eyewash stations on that same pipe while you're at it - that's how many of those shower/eyewash fixtures are installed anyway. Eric Eric Clark, MS CCHO, CHMM Safety & Compliance Officer Los Angeles County Public Health Laboratory >>> "Debbie M. Decker"
11/2/2010 4:43 PM >>> It may have something to do with a weird interpretation the cross-connection prevention requirements in the plumbing code. Just a thought. Sent from my Blackberry. From: ILPI [mailto:info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 02:31 PM To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] FW: Lab safety showers Wow - no eyewashes! This project manager would have you violate OSHA 29 CFR 1910.151: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9806&p_table=STANDARDS Don't think any private code trumps the Feds. Except where private codes are incorporated by reference. The manager might get away with not installing plumbed eye washes or drench hoses, as you can use portable units that will supply the required flow, but there is no way you can avoid plumbing a shower - 20 gallons per minute for 15 minutes would require a huge tank. Rob Toreki On Nov 2, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Margaret Rakas wrote: Of course you are correct that it doesn't make sense. But I just left a meeting where a very upset project manager INSISTED eyewashes cannot be plumbed due to the possibility of contamination (the engineer told him it was code...) This makes even less sense, but as I will spend a good amount of time in the next day or two trying to determine WHICH code, and whether it is superseded by another, etc etc I would like to suggest that CHAS find some way to officially work with the code-setters, at least on lab-related issues. My personal opinion only, not business or legal advice, and may not reflect the opinion of my employer... Margaret >>> "Alnajjar, Mikhail S" > 11/2/2010 4:16 PM >>> To be honest with all those who are interested in this topic, the berm idea does not make any sense considering the rare events where showers are used. As it was mentioned, the hazardous materials are so diluted that it is not logical to flood the floor (building) for the sake of preventing trace amounts of hazardous materials from going down the drain. Thanks É M.A From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On Behalf Of Alan McCartney Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 10:50 AM To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] FW: Lab safety showers I might be mistaken, but the placement of the berm, will violate the life safety code (and rleated bulding codes) regarding smooth, trip free walking surfaces. I believe this limitation is 1/8". On top of this, this triping hazard will directly compound & negatively affect the worker's compensation exposure for the associated employees. I would think that the this trumps the local water / sewer inspectors request. Alan On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Williams, Mark > wrote: Thank you for the citation, Rob! Mary, if you run across the letter of interpretation sometime in the future, would you post it here for us? Thanks Mark Williams Teledyne Energy Systems Inc. 38 Loveton Cr Sparks MD 21152 410-472-7733 mark.williams**At_Symbol_Here**teledynees.com ________________________________ From: ILPI [mailto:info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM ] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Lab safety showers Excellent. With that lead from Mary, I was able to look up where shower water is apparently exempted: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/julqtr/40cfr261.3.htm Sec. 261.3 Definition of hazardous waste. (snip) however, the following mixtures of solid wastes and hazardous wastes listed in subpart D of this part are not hazardous wastes (except by application of paragraph (a)(2)(i) or (ii) of this section) if the generator can demonstrate that the mixture consists of wastewater the discharge of which is subject to regulation under either section 402 or section 307(b) of the Clean Water Act (including wastewater at facilities which have eliminated the discharge of wastewater) and; (snip) (D) A discarded commercial chemical product, or chemical intermediate listed in Sec. 261.33, arising from de minimis losses of these materials from manufacturing operations in which these materials are used as raw materials or are produced in the manufacturing process. For purposes of this paragraph (a)(2)(iv)(D), ``de minimis'' losses include those from normal material handling operations (e.g., spills from the unloading or transfer of materials from bins or other containers, leaks from pipes, valves or other devices used to transfer materials); minor leaks of process equipment, storage tanks or containers; leaks from well maintained pump packings and seals; sample purgings; relief device discharges;discharges from safety showers and rinsing and cleaning of personal safety equipment; and rinsate from empty containers or from containers that are rendered empty by that rinsing; or (E) Wastewater resulting from laboratory operations containing toxic (T) wastes listed in subpart D of this part, Provided, That the annualized average flow of laboratory wastewater does not exceed one percent of total wastewater flow into the headworks of the facility's wastewater treatment or pre-treatment system or provided the wastes, combined annualized average concentration does not exceed one part per million in the headworks of the facility's wastewater treatment or pre-treatment facility. Toxic (T) wastes used in laboratories that are demonstrated not to be discharged to wastewater are not to be included in this calculation; or..... Rob ====================================================== Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names you know and trust. Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412 Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012 On Oct 28, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Mary Cavanaugh wrote: I donŐt have time to dig it up right now, but there is an EPA letter of interpretation that says that runoff from an emergency drench shower is not hazardous waste. So containment is only necessary if your local POTW is requiring it. From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Hall Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 3:15 PM To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab safety showers I agree with Rob Torecki, This is a senseless regulation that would do much more harm than good, and presents a slip-and-fall hazard full time, not just when the emergency shower is in use. I also agree with how dilute most chemical splashes would be by the time you dilute them with 15 minutes **At_Symbol_Here** 20 gallons/minute = 300 gallons of water. Alan Alan H. Hall, M.D. Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:55:20 -0400 From: info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab safety showers To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Wow, thanks for sharing. That one is a poster child for Bad Regulations. 1. Let's say the berm encompasses a 4' x 4' area around the shower. That's 16 square feet, one inch high, for a volume of 1.33 cubic feet = 10 gallons. Under ANSI Z358, showers must put out at least 20 gallons per minute. And that shower is likely to flow for 5, if not 15 minutes. So the berm is essentially useless. Now, if the reg is calling for a berm that say, stretches across an entire hallway or doorway - heck, or just around the drain itself, that might work by flooding the rest of the building, as all it does is make the floor drain non-functional. Plugging the floor drain permanently is an easier solution. 2. The amount of hazardous material on a victim is going to be so exceedingly small and so diluted in the drains that it boggles the mind. Seriously - you get what, 10 mL of concentrated acid on you and that washes down the drain with 100 gallons of water? Yeesh. And if the stuff was so nasty toxic that it is a hazard even that dilue, this city review department thinks it's better to spread the hazmat all over the building and down a couple floors onto various objects and people than it is to send it down the drain. 3. When you're blinded by something and trying to find a shower on foot or on a wheelchair, even that 1" sloped bump is a barrier. And no doubt a trip hazard the rest of time no matter how well it's marked with floor tape. Rob Toreki ====================================================== Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names you know and trust. Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412 Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012 On Oct 28, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Betsy Shelton wrote: I am currently involved in construction of two new laboratories and was instructed by the city commercial building review department to include a 1" high curb around the shower area to keep hazmat from entering the floor drain in the event of a spill. Also, the curb has to be sloped on both sides to allow accessibility. -- Best regards, Betsy Shelton 512.636.1905 retrosynthesis**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned by MCI Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on MCI's Managed Email Content Service, visit http://www.mci.com. ______________________________________________________________________
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