From: Peter Zavon <pzavon**At_Symbol_Here**>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] NFPA 45 -- 2015
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:20:41 -0400
Reply-To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Message-ID: 005901cf4575$52a46770$f7ed3650$**At_Symbol_Here**

"Graduate research" is conducted by graduate students - people who are
working toward a Masters or Doctoral degree, having already obtained a
Bachelor's degree.

"Post-graduate research" is conducted by people who have been awarded a
Doctorate and are spending a year or more as a "Post Doc," working under a
more senior researcher.

This later is somewhat analogous to the Intern or Resident in medicine,
where someone who has received an MD degree works as a junior team member to
obtain more experience.

Peter Zavon, CIH
Penfield, NY


-----Original Message-----
From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:dchas-l**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU] On Behalf Of
Paul Harrison
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] NFPA 45 -- 2015

I'm not an expert, but I would guess that, since "post-graduate research"
means research by students who have a Bachelors degree, "graduate research"
actually means research by students who do not, i.e. those working towards a
Bachelor's degree. There are many such situations, such as students
conducting senior thesis work.

Thus, the distinction is between "research" and "instructional" with the
latter including standard experiments conducted by many students in an
allotted place and a defined time. Normally that would apply to
undergraduates, but I'm sure that there are also graduate courses in that
category, professional schools and the like.

However, what is much less clear is what happens when the lab component of a
course has a research element (as they all really should...). A simple
example: students prepare a library of related compounds, then each is
tested in a bio-assay. Is that research or teaching? In fact it is of
course both.

I would argue that the NFPA should review their policy.... and to be more
general and frank, I would also argue that policy-makers should find out
what their proposed policy will apply to in real life before they start
writing. But that would be novel....


On Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:50:29 -0400
CHeadPE**At_Symbol_Here**AOL.COM wrote:
> I have a question regarding NFPA 45. I am wondering how undergraduate
> research labs fit into the definition of Instructional laboratory
> units. As defined in the 2011 version of NFPA:
> "used for education past the 12th grade and before post-college
> graduate-level instruction for the purposes of instruction of six or more
persons for
> four or more hours per day or more than 12 hours per week. Experiments
> and tests conducted in instructional lab units are under the direct
> supervision of an instructor. Lab units used for graduate or
> post-graduate research are not to be considered instructional lab units."
> The definition specifically excludes graduate and post-graduate research.

> Why doesn't it exclude "undergrad research" too? This would be
> situations where the instructor is not always present, but labs where
> several undergraduate students are working at the same time.
> Thank you.
> Charlotte J. Head, P.E.
> industrial environmental consultant
> North Kingstown, RI 02852
> In a message dated 03/19/2014 1:13:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> bfoster**At_Symbol_Here**WVU.EDU writes:
> Dan referenced NFPA 45 in his recent email.
> I would like to mention that NFPA 45: Standard on Fire Protection for
> Laboratories Using Chemicals (current edition: 2011) is in the process
> of revision. The next edition is scheduled for 2015.
> (I am a member of the 45 Technical Committee.) Barbara L. Foster
> Director of Laboratory Safety Eberly College of Arts and Sciences
> West Virginia University
> 304-293-2729 (desk)
> 304-276-0099 (mobile)
> From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:dchas-l**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Crowl
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 12:13 PM
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Ductless fumehoods or Not.
> Look at this NIH policy document on ductless hoods. It is from 2005.
> That is where I got the NFPA reference for NFPA 45. It is section 6.4.1.
> oods%2
> 0Review_2007.pdf
> Dan Crowl
> Michigan Tech
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Richard W. Denton
> <_rwdenton3**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com_
> (mailto:rwdenton3**At_Symbol_Here** > wrote:
> Hi everyone:
> I was asked by my department to assist in deciding whether to
> purchase ductless fumehoods for our undergraduate chemistry labs. We
> are planning to use these for flammable solvents, and reactions involving
HCl and NaOH.
> These hoods will be used by undergraduates for research also. Any
> input on the safety issues involved with these equipments versus the
> regular hoods would be appreciated.
> -Richard (CHO)

Paul Harrison
Associate Professor of Chemistry
Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology McMaster University
1280 Main St. W., Hamilton, ON, L8S 4M1, Canada
Phone: (905)525-9140 ext. 27290; FAX: (905)522-2509

If you have an accommodation need for a planned meeting, please e-mail me
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