From: David C. Finster <dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Gas Leak Training Input
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 20:27:36 +0000
Reply-To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Message-ID: 7AB8F8BFE46C5446902F26C10EBF4AEAA4CC3A5B**At_Symbol_Here**

Seems like the conditions of the demonstration are critical here.  Indoors or outside?   If inside, what is the ACH turnover rate (particularly if in a lab space with hoods going full blast)?   CO2 has an IDLH of 40,000 ppm (4% by volume); perhaps easy to get to this in some circumstance, but harder in others.  A "leak" of CO2 won=E2=80™t generate as much as dropping 5 pounds of dry ice in a large bucket of water.


I have done SCBA training (as a firefighter) where we used theatrical fog.  It works OK; the bottle of liquid says "non-toxic" which made laugh a bit since the dose makes the poison, but if using this to simulate a leak, rather than engulfing a whole room, it has the virtue of being visible and "relatively" "non-toxic."


Is the goal to "see how a leak behaves" so that the ERT can practice visualizing an invisible (but audible?) leak and the confine the leak, evacuate the area and call HazMat, or to have them stop the leak?  The latter is clearly more complicated and risky.  Seems like a local ERT should (only) attempt to confine and evacuate.  (I'm assuming that the team will not be trained in SCBA use, but even if they are an unknown substance leak or known toxic gas leak is really something for the HazMat team under almost all circumstances.)




David C. Finster
Professor, Department of Chemistry  (and FF/hazmat technician)
University Chemical Hygiene Officer
Wittenberg University


From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:dchas-l**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Hall
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Gas Leak Training Input


Dry ice in water off-gases carbon dioxide, which will itself have certain hazards in enclosed spaces.  Carbon dioxide by sublimation (goes from a solid directly to gas without going through a liquid phase)  has also caused toxicity in enclosed spaces.  A certain Air Force aircraft with frozen foods in the cargo compartment comes to mind.


Usually not hazardous if outdoors, but in a confined space scenario, can be toxic or deadly.


Carbon dioxide is also not just a simple asphyxiant (displaces oxygen from the breathing atmosphere), but has other toxic properties in high enough concentrations.


Outdoors, you might consider a simple smoke grenade in a barrel and go from there.  Could also do fire extinguisher training at the same time.  The parrtipants would need to have proper PPE including full face-piece respiratrors, etc.


Safety FIRST.  Dead or hurt rescuers don't save/assist anybody.




Alan H.Hall,M.D.

Medical Toxicologist

Verified Advanced HAZMAT Life Support Provider and Instructor


(307) 399-1564





On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Herriott, Carole <Carole.Herriott**At_Symbol_Here**> wrote:

Would dry ice in water work?



"Simplicity involves unburdening your life, and living more lightly with fewer distractions that interfere with a high quality life, as defined uniquely by each individual."

 - Linda Breen Pierce


From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:dchas-l**At_Symbol_Here**] On Behalf Of Samantha D
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 8:37 AM
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Gas Leak Training Input


Hi all,


I'm trying to put together a gas leak training for our ERT members and I can't quite decide how to set it up. If the gas was visible, that would be nice but I can't think of a good candidate. Have any of you done anything like this? If so, any ideas or input into how to get this training onto it's feet would be much appreciated.


I already have liquid spill training planned out.


Thank you!

Samantha Lushtak

Atmel Corporation

Environmental, Health, and Safety Engineer


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