From: Zack Mansdorf <mansdorfz**At_Symbol_Here**BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] NSTA Safety Blog
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 16:20:55 -0400
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Message-ID: 000601d43f0c$a0a21040$e1e630c0$**At_Symbol_Here**

Ok Alan----I am coming to rescue you from the wrath of that Rossoi lady (the one that has mice that poop green).


My experience is that there is a requirement in the civilized world to follow accepted practice. Said another way, you cannot knowingly put people at risk without consequence just because there is no one to say it is against the law. You may not go to jail or prison, but you will pay a lot of money in civil court. Also "been there-done that".





S.Z. Mansdorf, PhD, CIH, CSP, QEP

Consultant in EHS and Sustainability

7184 Via Palomar

Boca Raton, FL 33433





From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Alan Hall
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] NSTA Safety Blog


Et al,


Known or SHOULD have known?  How can you know?  Riddle me thant with all the philosophy in the world. Yoiu can't know until something happens (which is usually too late and those of us who deal with such thngs have to pick up the peices), and the "precautionary principle" the back of my hand and its soul to the bad guy.  It doesn't work in practice, unless you invoke the BANANA Syndrome:  "Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Neare Anything."


In my dealings with ANSI/ISEA, we take "must" to be "you must do it" and "should" to mean "it would be a dern good idea to do it anyway". ..


And Frye my backside.  You'd have thought that Daubert vs. Merrill Dow settled that silly issue.  Nonsense about polygraphs being science?  No more science to it than a worm in a rottren apple.  i reviwed the whole thing:   beacause my late waife took Bendectin)R) and our dsaughter is disabled.  Show me the causation and belive me I've read every scrapy of data about it.  Causation?  No way in hades.


MONONA:  Perhaps, again, we agree to disagree, but in the end, we're on the same side and wanting safe things for good people who just want to do their jobs and get on with the rest of their lives.



AlanH. Hall, M.D.

Medical Toxicologist




On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:05 AM, Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**> wrote:

Well, no, Jim.  Must, shmust.  That difference is not important at all when you introduce the OSHA rules as national standards of practice even though the employer/defendant was not legally bound by them.  And remember, the employer/defendant also is not legally bound to follow any ANSI or ASTM standard either unless is it referenced in some law that applies.  So we use the OSHA standards as just another set of standards.


Sometimes it takes a Frye hearing to do that and an agreement to make sure the jury knows the defendant was not bound by law to follow these standards.  But once the OSHA standards are in, the fact that OSHA precautions were available and being practiced by others while this employer/defendant didn't do anything even close to those precautions goes to negligence.  Been there, done that.


And one other little twist that is worth noting, the OSHA standards are for adult trained workers.  If a school doesn't provide precautions BETTER than these OSHA rules require for their students, oops!  Students are not always adults, not being paid, and are by definition inexperienced and untrained.  Juries usually have a lot of current and former parents of students in them. I smell toast.



Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist

President:  Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.

Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE

New York, NY 10012     212-777-0062



-----Original Message-----
From: James Kaufman <jim**At_Symbol_Here**LABSAFETY.ORG>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2018 7:27 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] NSTA Safety Blog

Monona wrote ...


"I always put in my boiler plate about the different OSHA state rules and how, whether in effect or not in a particular school, the fact that the OSHA regulations are accepted national standards as well as regulations puts a teachers liability on the line if they ignore them. "


However, truth be told, OSHA regulations are not accepted nationally as regulations in many public sector places of employment. There is a difference between Must and Should.  We have a responsibility to make the difference clear between Regulatory Requirements and Best Practices.  


Otherwise, we are heading down the slippery path of the ends justifying the means.


I reviewed the CHP of one pharmaceutical company that included the words Must and Should in their glossary.  ... Jim

PS. There's more to lab safety than just labs!"

James A. Kaufman, Ph.D.

Founder/VP of Education
The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)

A Nonprofit Educational Organization for Safety in Science, Industry, and Education

192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252
508-647-1900  Fax: 508-647-0062 
Cell: 508-574-6264  Res: 781-237-1335
Skype: labsafe; 508-401-7406 

Teach, Learn, and Practice Science Safely


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