From: ILPI Support <info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Scientist says some pollution is good for you - a disputed claim Trump's EPA has embraced
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 14:52:08 -0500
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Message-ID: 88774809-289E-4034-92AD-50C32E74FDCE**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com
In-Reply-To


I've enjoyed the musings and reparte on this.  As a non-toxicologist my thought is this:


There are untold numbers of unique chemical substances, most of which are man-made which means, by definition, neither man nor the environment has co-evolved with them and established a natural equilibrium. Therefore, most of these are likely to have unknown and/or unexpected consequences (PFOA's, BPA, MTBE, PAH's PCB, etc as a few quick examples) because our bodies and the environment have not evolved mechanisms to deal with them at any level.  In comparison, there are a handful of specific basic chemical building blocks that fit the criteria of being beneficial at the right dose - vitamins, trace elements etc.and our bodies and ecosystem have learned to benefit from or rely on these only after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. And there are a similar number of "unnatural" products (e.g. medicines) that happen to interact in the right way to cause good (but often with a panoply of other undesired side effects) but only at the right level.

So if we put known "good" chemicals and drugs (again, somehow miraculously delivered in the exactly right dose for the exact population which requires them without inappropriately dosing anyone else) in the numerator and the 100 million+ compounds we know nothing about in the denominator, the results is effectively 0% of unknown compounds will be good for you at any level.  While there certainly may be a chance that one is good for you at low levels the *probability* is vanishingly small.  Right up there with finding a Goldilocks planet with life on it.

Therefore, it seems appropriate to assume that an unknown or untested chemical is harmful until proven otherwise.  The burden of proof rests with the polluter to offer scientifically valid evidence to the contrary, ideally work performed by independent scientists.

Rob Toreki

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On Feb 28, 2019, at 1:54 PM, Mark Pichaj <mark.pichaj**At_Symbol_Here**BIOLA.EDU> wrote:

Friends,

   Just to stir the pot a little, I once read (years ago, and can't remember the source) that the radiation exposure during the horrific atomic bomb explosions in Japan, while for the most part quite deleterious, of course, were actually therapeutic in small doses to people far from the blast.  (Sounds more like the radium craze of the early 1900s, I know, but it was an interesting article.)

yours,
Mark Pichaj


Mark Adolf Pichaj  •  Assistant Professor  •  Department of Chemistry, Physics & Engineering  •  Lim 324  •  x4866
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BIOLA  UNIVERSITY  •  13800 Biola Avenue  •  La Mirada, Calif.  90639  •  562-903-4866  •  mark.pichaj**At_Symbol_Here**biola.edu



On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 10:16 AM MN Cooper <00000313ede34dce-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**lists.princeton.edu> wrote:
This discussion reminds me of the current conversation about oversight of DOE. The DOE has recently proposed order 140.1 which would significantly limit the Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board (DNFSB) oversight of the DOE and their contractors. This in light of many employee and public health  issues that have occurred. Seems to me that we need more of these independent safety boards like the Chemical Safety Board (CSB) & DNFSB and not less. 

With regards,
Mike

Michael N. Cooper MS, MPH, CIH
Certified Industrial Hygienist
Principal Scientist 
mcooperconsulting

Instructor, University of California, Davis mncooper**At_Symbol_Here**ucdavis.edu
(408) 313-2127


On Feb 28, 2019, at 10:06, Michael <mabuczynski**At_Symbol_Here**hotmail.com> wrote:

I have to agree with Zack on this issue and we can all point to specific instances where something not right happened.. How about the EPA rushing thru rules in the last few weeks of the Obama administration without review or how about the mine flood with arsenic where no one at EPA was accountable and on and on from both scientific and political positions.  We need the proper analysis of environmental problems with appropriate solutions not overboard either way with too much or not enough action.  I too know several people at the EPA with whom I have worked with over the years and they are very good at what they do but oversight is needed.


From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 8:01 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Scientist says some pollution is good for you - a disputed claim Trump's EPA has embraced
 
The EPA has been out of control for years and needs to be reformed so that they can continue to achieve their mission without hysteria from the press.
I just couldn't let this pass.  It is never "the EPA" that is out of control.  Take some EPA employees to lunch.  You will find that  90% of the employees in EPA are people like you and me, people just trying to do a job.  What needs to be controlled is the politicians in power and the industries that own them.  

When the wheels came off EPA's bus after the 9/11 building collapse, it was only the head of EPA, Whitman, who told people the air was safe as her handlers demanded.  The individual EPA workers shook their heads in disbelief and often told us the truth off the record.  And I happen to be a long-time friend of one of the whistleblower employees to went through hell trying to let people know the truth.

The curse of this representative republic is we get exactly what we vote for.  

Monona Rossol




-----Original Message-----
From: Zack Mansdorf <mansdorfz**At_Symbol_Here**BELLSOUTH.NET>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2019 5:30 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Scientist says some pollution is good for you - a disputed claim Trump's EPA has embraced

This is total junk science.  The entire field of industrial hygiene is based on the dose response model.  To assume that any "toxic" has a zero threshold is crazy.  The best example is the trace minerals that are necessary to support human life.  My morning dose of caffeine is heart healthy but probably carcinogenic just like the alcohol in my red wine.  Paracelsus said way back in the late 1400's that "-"Everything is a poison, nothing is a poison. It is the dose that makes the poison"
 
I could go on but won't. 
 
The point is that we do need to regulate air pollutants in a sensible manner that considers cost/benefit.  The EPA has been out of control for years and needs to be reformed so that they can continue to achieve their mission without hysteria from the press.
 
Zack
 
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of TILAK CHANDRA
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 10:16 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Scientist says some pollution is good for you - a disputed claim Trump's EPA has embraced
 
Thank you Rob!
 
To verify the actual toxicity of various pollutants/particulates, we need to have the data on human clinical trials, not on other species According to recent UNO report, 4.2 million deaths occur each year due to air pollution. Also, how we are going to measure low and high pollution.
 
This will be a good puzzle for Dr. Alan Hall, a toxicologist to interpret reported toxicological data published in peer review journals about some pollution is good for humans.
 
Tilak

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of ILPI Support <info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:03:40 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Scientist says some pollution is good for you - a disputed claim Trump's EPA has embraced
 
The title of this LA Times article speaks for itself.  Interesting to hear what "mainstream" toxicologists have to say on this.
 
 
Rob Toreki
 
 ======================================================
Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names
you know and trust.  Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com  or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012
 
 

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