From: James Kaufman <jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**LABSAFETYINSTITUTE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Standard vs HazCom
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:39:19 -0500
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Message-ID: CAHk9oEQVyZQL2be=xdr0uuySoAZzOqPoymxRezP5r0ZZ2VKoqA**At_Symbol_Here**mail.gmail.com
In-Reply-To <003501d8048c$a8830140$f98903c0$**At_Symbol_Here**verizon.net>


There is one other issue that no one has mentioned.

The original documents for the lab standard said "easily and safely manipulated by a single person". Fortunately, some bright souls recognized that they did not want to suggest that you had to be unmarried! ... Jim

PS. Just kidding!


James A. Kaufman, PhD

Founder/President Emeritus


The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)

A Nonprofit Educational Organization for Safety in Science, Industry, and Education

192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252

(O) 508-647-1900 (F) 508-647-0062 (C) 508-574-6264 Skype: labsafe; 508-401-7406

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On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 8:22 AM Richard Palluzi <000006c59248530b-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**lists.princeton.edu> wrote:

I think this discussion misses the point a bit. I have seen numerous research laboratories that use drums to feed or collect products from hoods. Not terribly common certainly but not that uncommon. I do not think the size of the container(s) have any relevance to is it or is it not a laboratory.

The question I thought I read was is an organization that does large volumes of commercial tests in a laboratory setting a laboratory. (Think a lab that runs thousands of Covid tests each day or hundreds of ASTM tests a day.) No research is done. To me these are still laboratories as the work is done in a laboratory setting.

I agree the OSHA definition is a bit weak on what od but I suspect that we would all recognize the operation as a laboratory and so I would always follow and apply the lab standard.

My view for what it is worth.

Richard Palluzi

PE, CSP,FAIChE

Pilot plant and laboratory consulting, safety, design, reviews, and training

www.linkedin.com/in/richardppalluzillc/

Richard P Palluzi LLC

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From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of ALFRED BARKSDALE
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 1:17 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Standard vs HazCom

Very sensible thoughts. The regs are there for all.

AD [Kipp] Barksdale, PhD. Blessedly retired.

On 01/07/2022 4:21 PM Heinz Trebitz <heinztrebitz**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com> wrote:

Hello All:

As so often, we overlook the practical aspect over our compliance concerns.
A 55 gal drum filled with water weighs almost 460 lbs. You cannot lift it. You can move it with a dolly or roll it on its edge. But it takes a strong person to do that.
My first answer to the compliance question: Switch your hood operation to a smaller drum. The smaller wight can be handled more easily and safely. You have a smaller quantity to deal with when there is a spill.
For compliance: I think you are stretching the definition of allowable container size.

Heinz Trebitz, PhD


On 1/7/2022 1:11 PM, neal**At_Symbol_Here**CHEMICAL-SAFETY.COM wrote:

One of my clients had a lab with a walk-in hood that used 55-gallon drums as feed containers for the test apparatus in the hood. A drum can be handled by a single person and they applied the Lab Standard to the entire lab. I read the regulation to allow real employer flexibility, as long as you clearly define parameters in the documentation.

NL

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of 000015a92c3b14e1-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 9:43 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Standard vs HazCom

All


Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear. My questions is more around what size/volume(s) can you really no longer apply the lab standard. It would also relate to type of processes. For example, a "laboratory" that is not "production" but using 5, 10 or larger gallon containers…….that still can be manipulated by a single person….

An example could be a lab making clinical batches….etc. The folks in the larger volume "lab" would be scientist with equal expertise and experience to a normal (smaller quantity) research "lab".

Thanks

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Kolodziej, Christopher
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 11:53 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Standard vs HazCom

CAUTION! Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender, this email is from an External Sender (outside Boehringer-Ingelheim)

Ralph, I think you're correct in terms of the rationale for the Lab Standard, even if they're not fully expressed in its text. Fred Malaby wrote a bit about how the ideas of laboratory researchers as experts, and the transient nature of their work, contributed to its development in his 2016 reflection on the history of the Lab Standard (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jchas.2015.10.015). I also think that the condition that "Multiple chemical procedures or chemicals are used" at least points in the direction of changing processes.

As for Bill's original question regarding specific volume or weight cutoffs, I'm not aware that any regulatory agency has ever published anything definitive, and I don't expect they have any interest in doing so. In my mind, 5 gal is a good rule of thumb, but I can easily imagine exceptions to that in both directions.

________________________________

Christopher M. Kolodziej, Ph.D.
Chemical Hygiene Officer

UCLA Environment, Health & Safety | Chemical Safety

Mobile: (310) 261-8611

Book a virtual appointment

-----Original Message-----
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Ralph Stuart
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 7:19 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Standard vs HazCom

> >Laboratory use of hazardous chemicals means handling or use of such chemicals in which all of the following conditions are met:

>

This is a more interesting question than I thought. I had thought another piece of the definition of a laboratory included changing chemical processes and an educated workforce. Evidently, I moved the idea that the lab workforce has special chemical safety expertise from the definition of the CHO to that of the lab as a whole in my mind.

Anyway, I can imagine writing the CHP for the lab in a way that includes the lab staff's chemical safety expertise into this boundary you are exploring.

- Ralph

Ralph Stuart, CIH, CCHO

ralph**At_Symbol_Here**rstuartcih.org

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