From: Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:39:50 +0000
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Message-ID: 625353809.1149042.1561397990222**At_Symbol_Here**mail.yahoo.com
In-Reply-To


Well, I took the time to look at the videos.  Experimenting with Danger from the CSB has one glaring booboo.  And that's in the Wetterhahn/Dartmouth story where the PI and others got off with that lame stuff about "who knew?" 

Well, anyone willing and able to read knew, that's who.  The problem was that there was no standard PPE training at Dartmouth in which glove permeation was a subject.  And the gloves Karen was using were rubber latex medical examining gloves which are not approved for use with chemicals.  Even at that time (1996), Kimberly Clark's brochures for medical gloves clearly stated that these were not for use with chemicals and that even an incidental splash of chemicals should be responded to by immediately removing the glove.

I'm really disappointed in the CSB's handling of that death. In this case, a standard PPE training module where we show a chemical glove chart, a module we were all using to train even at that time, would have prevented this whole damn thing.  And with that chemical, in particular, she should have been wearing a different glove.

Monona


-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia Redden <predden**At_Symbol_Here**SAINTPETERS.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2019 11:39 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

Looks great, Marta.

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 9:25 AM Gmurczyk, Marta <M_Gmurczyk**At_Symbol_Here**acs.org> wrote:
Dear All:
I have been following the discussion regarding the rainbow flame demo. My colleague Kim Duncan and I have collaborate to put together the following site related to the safer flame tests.
 
If you have any suggestions how to improve this page, please let me know. Please feel free to use this page in your communications with teachers.
Sincerely,
Marta Gmurczyk
 
 
Marta U. Gmurczyk, Ph.D.
Safety Programs Manager| Scientific Advancement Division
1155 16th St., NW | Washington | DC 20036
T 202-452-2105 | F 202-872-8068
www.acs.org
----------=E2=80"-------=E2=80"-
ACS Chemistry for Life
American Chemical Society
 
 
 
 
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Mary Shane
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2019 11:14 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
 
I have done this as a microscale lab.  I make the solutions before hand and never have the alcohol still in the lab.  I use small candles  and cotton swabs.  It has worked safely but I can see where it can go wrong.  I am going to try the method mentioned using long cotton swabs soaked in distilled water and dipped in the salts.  If it gives the same results, I will switch to the new method and share with my colleagues.  We have been told not to use methanol and I have only used it for this lab.  I think the AP Chemistry teacher used it last year.  I will be that teacher this next year and will look to see if methanol can be completely removed.  
 
On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 12:43 PM Eric Goff <ericwgoff**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with Peter.

What we do is soak cotton swabs (The long Q-tip type ones) in
distilled water for about an hour. Dip the end in the various salts
and get the same result when burning. Others use wooden stirrers /
popsicle type sticks and do the same and get the same result.

Perhaps we should be assisting those in the classroom with viable
alternatives for this and other activities.

Best Regards,

-Eric

On 6/22/19, pzavon**At_Symbol_Here**rochester.rr.com <pzavon**At_Symbol_Here**rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> One thing I notice about this letter and many other comments about
> this demonstration directed to educators is the frequent absence of
> guidance on how to perform it more safely, or on alternative, less
> hazardous, demonstrations that would illustrate the same principles.
> In my experience, it is usually more effective to provide alternatives
> than to simply say "don't do that."
> Decades ago, my then boss at Princeton University used to say to
> faculty members something along the lines of "I am not telling you
> that you can't to that; I am telling you that you can't do it in the
> way you have been accustomed to doing it."
> Peter Zavon, CIHPenfield, NY(on location in Cincinnati, OH)
>
>       -----------------------------------------From: "davivid"
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday June 21 2019 6:36:30PM
> Subject: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow
> flame demo
>
> Here is a letter I just emailed to the National PTA. Let's hope this
>  helps get some progress on the issue.
>
>  Dave Lane
>  Principal
>  Clavis Technology Development
>
>  -------- Forwarded Message --------
>  Subject: Dangerous classroom demonstration
>  Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 15:31:09 -0700
>  From: davivid
>  To: info**At_Symbol_Here**pta.org
>
>  Dear PTA Gatekeeper
>
>  I write to call your attention to a common classroom demonstration
> that
>  injures students in several incidents every year. I hope that the PTA
>
>  can help end this practice by informing parents and schools of the
> danger.
>
>  The demonstration is typically called the "Rainbow Flame" or similar.
> It
>  involves solutions of various metal salts dissolved in alcohol that
> are
>  set on fire. The different metal salts give various colored flames,
>  hence "rainbow flame". If alcohol is poured near flame or other
> ignition
>  source the alcohol can suddenly erupt from the bottle in a phenomenon
>
>  called "flame jetting". The jet of flaming alcohol can severely burn
>  anyone in the path of the flames even as far as ten feet away.
>
>  Here are some links describing flame jetting.
>
>   Dangerous =E2=80=98Flame Jetting' Phenomenon Kills Hundreds Every Year
>
>  Here are links to some recent instances of flame jetting that have
>  injured students
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBFG1mTSBk
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBFG1mTSBk
>  /> A Safer
>
>
> ---
> For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional
> membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
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>


--
Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric W. Goff
Chemistry Educator

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