From: Ken Kretchman <kwkretch**At_Symbol_Here**ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Subject: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regardingthe rainbow flamedemo
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:27:25 -0400
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Message-ID: CAOYSQ48idhc6hZ2D5wO_h=58CbULc+H64uCbVM-AmxyEB5sCKA**At_Symbol_Here**mail.gmail.com
In-Reply-To <5d10c7b8.1c69fb81.384bf.acd6**At_Symbol_Here**mx.google.com>


Well said Kirk..

There is at least one more aspect to this that I think is worth airing....Taking nothing away from what has been shared but concerned
that we will still see more of these...

On the receiving side of these demos or the unfortunate person in the bar who was engulfed in flame is, I think, a basic and unfounded
assumption that the person initiating the event would not put someone else in harms way..so it must be safe. I think parents need to
teach their children to trust their instincts and common sense and exercise caution (hard to do that with a elementary schooler) and whenever
unsure....to question. and adjust. It may result in a few more steps further away from the flame.. This because despite everyone's best efforts at awareness
and proper procedure, not everyone will get the message.

Easier said than done but important I think.

Ken Kretchman .


Ken Kretchman, CIH, CSP Director, Environmental Health and Safety
NC State University / Box 8007 / 2620 Wolf Village Way / Raleigh North Carolina 27695-8007
Email: Ken_Kretchman**At_Symbol_Here**ncsu.edu / Phone: (919).515.6860 / Fax: (919).515.6307


On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 8:59 AM Kirk Hunter <kirk.p.hunter**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

Here's my "flame" story. I did many outreach activities that include various demos that used combustibles =E2=80" flaming water, alcohol canon, whoosh bottle, flame test, etc. up until the mid-90s. I always told the audience to never try to replicate these demos because they didn't know the needed precautions. I also tried to make any apparatus look more complicated that it needed to be to discourage replication.

Well, after doing demos for a combined group of jr high and senior high students, I got a call a couple days later from one of the teachers. A couple the students tried to replicate one of the flame demos I did. They ended up getting severely burned and hospitalized. My activities were reviewed looking for evidence by lawyers that I had provided information on how to do the activity. No luck there, so the parents were left with a huge medical bill.

At that point I quit doing any flame/combustion demos. Every thing I did used water. It was just as engaging. I could have fun with the students and they learned many of exact same concepts I was trying to do with flames.

I will also add my voice that if you must flames and explosions to engage students, then you really don't know how to teach. (My tongue-in-cheek editorial but a level of honest seriousness!) Demos can be fun and safe and not put anyone in harms way.

My only caveat is that the janitors didn't like me because I tended to splash water around. So, I just brought my own tarp and clean-up kit. Problem solved.

(Oh, I=E2=80™ve got more horror stories!! But that's for later.)

Kirk Hunter

214-693-8179

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Meg Osterby
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 7:24 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Subject: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regardingthe rainbow flamedemo

Hello all,

I also agree that we need to give these teachers alternatives. When I was at Western, did this with the cotton swabs (need to be the ones with wood sticks) wet with distilled water and dipped into the solids. Used shallow well spot plates to hold the solids. Very bright colors, even for KCl. Students didn't need to use blue glass to block the yellow components, as the purple/pink was easily seen and sharply colored.

My daughter is a 5th grade math teacher who I have offended by saying in her presence that many teachers need better training to know how to prevent such accidents. She says that teachers today believe they can learn anything they need to online and don't need extra instructions. She believes that accidents like the one Sammye testified in are not preventable. It's been a long standing argument between us. She won't accept that today's teachers are not prepared well enough to do such demos safely.

I think her opinion is important only because in my reading and responding to teachers who post teaching "tips" online, I almost always get angry responses if I ask about what safety precautions they are following. Or if I take issue with the often stated opinion that there have to be fires and explosions to make today's kids take any interest in science. These are common viewpoints and they are what we have to change. If the teacher doesn't believe that they need to consider safety because "I know that to teach science and keep the kids interested, that means exciting demos, and I can do them safely" but they don't really know, they just think they do, how do we change that behavior? I'm sure the teacher in the trial Sammye testified in didn't think anything bad was going to happen, or that there was a potential danger she didn't know about. The teachers are so ignorant of science that they have no idea what they don't know. They're convinced that they will learn everything they need to know to do the demo safely by watching it on YouTube.

They're wrong, as we keep seeing when yet another methanol accident occurs. How do we get it across to the teachers who are making these mistakes through ignorance, that they don't know enough to do the demo safely? They're convinced that all they need to know is how to stimulate kids' interest. My daughter says she believes she could do chemistry demos safely, and that scares the bejesus out of me, because I know she can't. Fortunately, she thinks she hates chemistry (both her parents are chemists) and isn't likely to ever do a science demo.

But I guess I want to know how it happens that new young teachers think you really just need to know how to teach, and then you can teach any subject, and any lesson, just by looking it up online briefly. When I did my teacher education coursework, they stressed that I'd always need to keep learning more and more chemistry content to keep up with the science. Apparently, my daughter and her colleagues are being taught something very different, and I believe it is a big part of the problem we are facing. My daughter thinks that teacher education should focus only on pedagogy, and let the subject area courses teach the content. But, as we have all been seeing for years now, not knowing enough science can lead to teachers doing unsafe demos, whether or not they know the pedagogy.

If the teacher looking for a "Wow" demo doesn't know that they don't know enough to do it safely, they won't look up the safety instructions. If they think all they need is to know what to do and words to generate and keep interest, we're in trouble. They are not going to look up what they believe they don't need to know.

I don't know a solution, but talking with young teachers convinces me that this is a big part of the problem. I recently contacted a teacher who posted her start of the school year bulletin boards online and asked her to re-consider the one showing a female "teacher" in a lab coat, with her hair standing on end and a smoking test tube in one hand and a vigorously bubbling flask in the other. The words on the display were also giving the wrong idea, but frankly I don't remember them. But her response to my email was an angry reply something like: "you don't know me and how I teach. I know how to motivate kids to like science, and it takes spectacular demos." So this teacher is doing just what my daughter's colleagues do, looking for "motivators" online and finding fires, explosions, etc. and not knowing that they are picking demos that are inherently dangerous, or that safer alternatives that can be equally interesting if taught properly, could be used. How do we reach these teachers?

My dad used to say that ignorance (meaning a lack of knowledge) is curable. But that stupidity (he defined as an unwillingness to learn what is needed) can be fatal. Today's generation takes ignorance as an insult, and won't admit even to themselves that there's more they need to learn. Those of us older know we have to keep learning, and that it's better to learn from others mistakes instead of needing to make all our mistakes ourselves. How do we teach the younger teachers that the internet might have a lot of knowledge, but it isn't organized in ways that can keep you safe automatically? There are dozens and dozens of versions of the rainbow demo online, and only the ones from the DCHAS, and from NSTA and like sources mention the danger posed by the methanol that all those dozens are using..

Does anyone have any ideas on getting YouTube to be proactive and make it impossible to view those clips without first viewing the ones that teach the dangers? Or a better idea on how to get the info out in a way that these young, well-meaning teachers will actually see it and take note? I don't believe that any teacher says to themselves, "I think I'll run the rainbow demo today so I can set myself and several students on fire." Instead, they just don't know that they need to keep looking when finding a demo until they have also found all the safety info available to be adequately prepared to do the demo safely. So, not knowing the danger, and having this belief that schools of education seem to be fostering, they think that knowing how to teach means being able to teach anything. Thinking they have done due diligence in watching half a dozen YouTube videos with no safety info given, they proceed to do an unsafe demo, when safe alternatives are available, and once again we see this totally preventable accident happening again.

My $0.02 worth of ranting.

Meg Osterby

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