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From: Tom Slavin <slavinosh**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design
Date: Oct 29, 2018 21:39 UTC
Reply-To:
ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety
In-Reply-To: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design
The difference between a deflagration or a detonation is the speed of the pressure wave. If the pressure wave moves at less than the speed of sound it is a deflagration, but if greater than the speed of sound it is a detonation. Why the speed of sound? Because sound involves compression and rarefaction of air and the sound wave travels as fast as the air will allow. In the case of an explosion, if the pressure wave moves faster than the air will allow (speed of sound) the air itself will create the confinement.
Tom Slavin
slavinOSH**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 3:18 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design
Good point. What they do is deflagrate. And when this happens in a confined space, the increase in volume during the burn causes the explosion. But deflagration itself can be a burn hazard to those near. Since starch and dye mixtures are used for some special effects, in training I show slides of the Taiwan pool party fire where these "Holi-like" powders in the air ignited in a venue that was open to the air (not confined) and over 500 people were hospitalized and 15 died from their burns.
I see chemistry demonstrations on the internet involving powders in the air, and I don't think they realize how easily this can get out of hand.
Aluminum has the added issue of being a very hot fire and water creates some hydrogen so the fire can be difficult to put out. Mix the aluminum powder with a little iron oxide and you can't put it out at all.
Betcha a nickle that if you are in a college, you can go into your theater and/or art department metal shops and see people cutting, grinding and polishing aluminum right along with iron and other metals and they are completely clueless about the fire issues. I even see these idiots cutting aluminum on a table saw that is connected to a dust collector full of wood and plastic dust. And some
Aluminum work belongs in its own separate shop with a special vacuum for cleanup that is approved for Group E dusts.
Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist
President: Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.
Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE
Safety Consultant: SAG-AFTRA
181 Thompson St., #23
New York, NY 10012 212-777-0062
-----Original Message-----
From: Zack Mansdorf <mansdorfz**At_Symbol_Here**BELLSOUTH.NET>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2018 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design
This makes for very interesting "learnings" as we used to say at AD Little.
One could certainly say that most of your chemicals stores that are flammable are also probably explosive (under the right conditions). Let me assure you that most all powders that are metallic or contain organics are potentially combustible dusts. The issue is not whether or not the dusts are combustible-the issue is how are they generated or used. Gunpowder if open to the air makes for a nice exciting flame but is not explosive unless contained.
As pointed out in another response, the question is "what is the likelihood of the powder being confined and provided with a minimum ignition energy at the minimum explosive concentration?" In the lab, this seems unlikely except for some very specialized situations such as a drying tower, etc. I can't imagine a chemical stores situation where this would be a problem (although maybe there are some weird situations where other factors are at play).
Combustible dusts do NOT explode with ignition. They explode with ignition and confinement. They explode when there is a confined dust cloud. I suggest you hire someone (CIH, CSP or Process Safety Engineer) with the experience and credentials to have a discussion with your facilities personnel and the local building code personnel.
Good luck.
Zack
S.Z. Mansdorf, PhD, CIH, CSP, QEP
Consultant in EHS and Sustainability
7184 Via Palomar
Boca Raton, FL 33433
561-212-7288
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Markopoulos, Marjorie Marie
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 10:10 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design
I have one interesting situation that we have recently experienced with laboratory chemicals (powdered aluminum, sulfur, and magnesium) being identified as combustible dusts. The building code designated for the space categorized as a non-H building. The building code states that in non-H spaces combustible dusts cannot be stored or used beyond quantities where an explosion risk exists if exposed to an ignition source. Interesting, the plans examiners are reviewing detailed chemical inventories by building code definitions and quantities.
We are currently working through the combustible dust situation and would also appreciate any insight to how others have documented a Hazardous Materials Management Plan for these situations or if others had to completely remove any type of combustible dust chemicals storage and use from these non-H spaces.
Marjorie
Marjorie Markopoulos, Ph.D., CBM, CCHO, RBP, CSP
Director
Department of Environmental Health and Safety
3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy | 047 Biological Sciences II
Dayton, OH 45435-0001
Phone: 937.775.2797 | Cell: 937.239.7936
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Mary Beth Mulcahy <mulcahy.marybeth**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018 at 9:37 AM
To: "DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU" <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design
Thanks everyone, and Ralph I had never seen that publication so thanks for posting the link.
Support staff is definitely included in the stakeholders, I just happened to only mention the audience that I would be talking to. Actually, the link Ralph posted does a nice job listing different stakeholders.
I thought there might be some more stories or there like the flooring example. If anyone thinks of others, I'll be listening.
Kimi, do you keep the researchers involved in the design process after you have them fill it the form, or do you feel that one you are aware of the hazards that EH&S can shepherd the rest of the process through?
Mary Beth
On Fri, Oct 26, 2018, 9:09 AM Luis A Samaniego <l-samaniego**At_Symbol_Here**northwestern.edu> wrote: