Actually, confinement is one of the five critical factors need to have a detonation be more likely than deflagration.  ... Jim 

No disagreement with any of this, but I'd be a little careful about the word "confined." The issue is the concentration in air, not the containment per se. The container or the space where the powder is confined is important, but only as a way of maintaining an explosive concentration. We've had combustible dust explosions in tire plants and metal refining and processing in relatively large spaces where the local concentration is high enough and there's a source of ignition. Titanium production is especially hazardous since large amounts of magnesium are used in the process.

 

Mike  

 

Michael J. Wright

Director of Health, Safety and Environment

United Steelworkers

 

412-562-2580 office

412-370-0105 cell

 

"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world."

                                                                                                                                                                                         Jack Layton

 

 

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 4:18 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design

 

Good point.  What they do is deflagrate.  And when this happens in a confined space, the increase in volume during the burn causes the explosion.  But deflagration itself can be a burn hazard to those near.  Since starch and dye mixtures are used for some special effects, in training I show slides of the Taiwan pool party fire where these "Holi-like" powders in the air ignited in a venue that was open to the air (not confined) and over 500 people were hospitalized and 15 died from their burns.  

 

I see chemistry demonstrations on the internet involving powders in the air, and I don't think they realize how easily this can get out of hand.  

 

Aluminum has the added issue of being a very hot fire and water creates some hydrogen so the fire can be difficult to put out.  Mix the aluminum powder with a little iron oxide and you can't put it out at all.

 

Betcha a nickle that if you are in a college, you can go into your theater and/or art department metal shops and see people cutting, grinding and polishing aluminum right along with iron and other metals and they are completely clueless about the fire issues.  I even see these idiots cutting aluminum on a table saw that is connected to a dust collector full of wood and plastic dust. And some 

 

Aluminum work belongs in its own separate shop with a special vacuum for cleanup that is approved for Group E dusts. 

 

Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist

President:  Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.

Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE

Safety Consultant:  SAG-AFTRA

181 Thompson St., #23

New York, NY 10012     212-777-0062

actsnyc**At_Symbol_Here**cs.com   www.artscraftstheatersafety.org

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Zack Mansdorf <mansdorfz**At_Symbol_Here**BELLSOUTH.NET>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2018 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design

This makes for very interesting "learnings" as we used to say at AD Little.

 

One could certainly say that most of your chemicals stores that are flammable are also probably explosive (under the right conditions).  Let me assure you that most all powders that are metallic or contain organics are potentially combustible dusts.  The issue is not whether or not the dusts are combustible-the issue is how are they generated or used.  Gunpowder if open to the air makes for a nice exciting flame but is not explosive unless contained.

 

As pointed out in another response, the question is "what is the likelihood of the powder being confined and provided with a minimum ignition energy at the minimum explosive concentration?"  In the lab, this seems unlikely except for some very specialized situations such as a drying tower, etc.  I can't imagine a chemical stores situation where this would be a problem (although maybe there are some weird situations where other factors are at play).

 

Combustible dusts do NOT explode with ignition.  They explode with ignition and confinement.  They explode when there is a confined dust cloud.  I suggest you hire someone (CIH, CSP or Process Safety Engineer) with the experience and credentials to have a discussion with your facilities personnel and the local building code personnel.

 

Good luck.

 

Zack

 

S.Z. Mansdorf, PhD, CIH, CSP, QEP

Consultant in EHS and Sustainability

7184 Via Palomar

Boca Raton, FL  33433

561-212-7288

 

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Markopoulos, Marjorie Marie
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 10:10 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design

 

I have one interesting situation that we have recently experienced with laboratory chemicals (powdered aluminum, sulfur, and magnesium) being identified as combustible dusts. The building code designated for the space categorized as a non-H building. The building code states that in non-H spaces combustible dusts cannot be stored or used beyond quantities where an explosion risk exists if exposed to an ignition source. Interesting, the plans examiners are reviewing detailed chemical inventories by building code definitions and quantities.

 

We are currently working through the combustible dust situation and would also appreciate any insight to how others have documented a Hazardous Materials Management Plan for these situations or if others had to completely remove any type of combustible dust chemicals storage and use from these non-H spaces.

 

Marjorie

 

Marjorie Markopoulos, Ph.D., CBM, CCHO, RBP, CSP

Director

Department of Environmental Health and Safety

3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy | 047 Biological Sciences II

Dayton, OH 45435-0001

Phone: 937.775.2797 | Cell: 937.239.7936

marjorie.markopoulos**At_Symbol_Here**wright.edu

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Mary Beth Mulcahy <mulcahy.marybeth**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018 at 9:37 AM
To: "DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU" <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Lab Design

 

Thanks everyone, and Ralph I had never seen that publication so thanks for posting the link.

 

Support staff is definitely included in the stakeholders, I just happened to only mention the  audience that I would be talking to. Actually, the link Ralph posted does a nice job listing different stakeholders.

 

I thought there might be some more stories or there like the flooring example. If anyone thinks of others, I'll be listening. 

 

Kimi, do you keep the researchers involved in the design process after you have them fill it the form, or do you feel that one you are aware of the hazards that EH&S can shepherd the rest of the process through?

 

Mary Beth

 

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018, 9:09 AM Luis A Samaniego <l-samaniego**At_Symbol_Here**northwestern.edu> wrote:

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