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Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story
Date: Oct 14, 2022 17:22 UTC
Author: Debbie Decker <debbie.m.decker**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Last Call - ACS 2023 Spring Meeting Abstracts
Date: Oct 14, 2022 18:53 UTC
Author: Mary Beth Koza <mbkoza2**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
From: Dan Nowlan <dnowlan**At_Symbol_Here**BERRYMANPRODUCTS.COM>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story
Date: Oct 14, 2022 18:20 UTC
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Message-ID: <SJ0PR17MB5510731222F886622C5623EFC0249**At_Symbol_Here**SJ0PR17MB5510.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <1911044610.1557771.1665689091526**At_Symbol_Here**mail.yahoo.com>
When we talk about “the hard courses” disappearing (at the undergraduate level), this is no joke. I started my college career in 1993, got out in 8 semesters
with a BS in chemistry, and never looked back. As a full-time college student working 42 hours a week to pay for school, books, gas, etc., it thoroughly kicked. my. ass. Chemistry and physics courses and labs were just brutal, and those weekly lab papers
kept me up ‘til 3 and 4am routinely. (25 years later I still can’t sleep right.)
Fast forward 20 years when my wife started her college career, and the curriculum and workload were unrecognizable. Her undergrad degree was a BAIS (education),
but she still had to take the “same” science lectures and labs that I took. I was initially quite concerned about her ability to “get it” (because science just isn’t her forte), only to find out that both the class and the lab had been so watered-down by
that point (2015ish) that both were really a breeze for her…to the point I didn’t even have/get to tutor her.
I’m not entirely sure what the implications are for the future of STEM in the US, but I suspect it’s not good. We already lag behind much of the civilized world
in secondary education since we coddle students of all ages while tending to only teach how to pass standardized tests (here in Texas anyway). Add simplified “higher education” for the masses to that equation and it seems we could reasonably expect to fall
behind technologically, too. “Look under your seat. You get a degree! You get a degree!
Everybody gets a degree!” - Oprah
But maybe, hopefully, I am wrong. After all, I
do only have two letters after my name….
Dan
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 2:25 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story
The downfall began when Regan put colleges and universities on a "business" model basis. When colleges and universities must be profit making businesses, they have
to appeal to their "clients" which are, sadly, the students. A college competes for students by promising a great football team, a place to drink and party, and to easily get a degree. No college could succeed by telling prospective students they are going
to work their asses off, have little time for a private life, and actually might not make it to graduation if they aren't diligent and smart.
You all have zero chance of turning this around as long as the structure of colleges remains the same. And you need to throw out the teachers who sell that crap about
learning can all be "fun." There are times learning is just plain hard. Teachers can sympathize and support, but the work must be done by the student. And learning to accept working hard is the best preparation for life and eventually making difficult things
fun.
And I watched over the years as all the really hard courses in chemistry and art disappeared from the curriculum. For example, in art, we had an anatomy course requiring
us to know the names of all the primary and secondary muscles, their origins and insertions, and be able to draw them free hand. The same with the 102 bones and drawing the hip, knee and shoulder joints free hand. When we passed this part of the course we
progress to drawing from the nude model. That was like a revelation because we knew why the contours looked the way they did. The chalk and the brush just flew with confidence and understanding. NOW THE WORK HAD BECOME FUN.
Today, I pass the hallway drawing exhibits in art departments and lament the lack of understanding in the "potato" people I see drawn there.
It's the same in all the courses. The foundation isn't there. The work ethic isn't there.
The other thing that must change is allowing students to specialize too soon. Currently, they can graduate without any knowledge of whole areas of learning. In the
past, you couldn't get a degree without a year of English, Math, Chemistry, Physics (two sciences) and history. People graduate today without any sense of the historical context into which their specialized field fits.
In other words, I believe we need a liberal arts education before we narrow into a specialty.
My attendant is here with the straight jacket, so I'll quit now. Monona
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr Bob <drbob**At_Symbol_Here**FLOWSCIENCES.COM>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2022 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story
Hi Rob!
Reminds me of a biological “continuous process” where each stage imposes impossible objectives on its predecessor. We need some thinking NOW that
transends stages!
Dr. Bob Haugen
Director of Product and Technology Development
Flow Sciences, Inc.
910 332 4878
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail, including all attachments, is directed in confidence solely to the person(s) to whom it is addressed, or an authorized recipient,
and may not otherwise be distributed, copied or disclosed. The contents of this transmission may also be subject to intellectual property rights and all such rights are expressly claimed and are not waived. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent
the views or policies of Flow Sciences Inc. or its employees.
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
On Behalf Of Info
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 1:12 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story
New report today from the folks who bring you the ACT exam. Damn depressing. https://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/2022/2022-National-ACT-Profile-Report.pdf
More data etc. here https://www.act.org/content/act/en/research/services-and-resources/data-and-visualization/grad-class-database-2022.html
A few pertinent highlights to this thread:
22% of student met all four of the College Readiness Benchmark Scores. Average ACT scores now lowest since 1991.
Table 1.6 - Achievement in STEM: only 16% meet the STEM benchmark. Table 3.6 - College readiness: only 20.8% met math and English in the best prepared students, 22.2% for reading and and 21.7% for science. That’s of the *best prepared* students.
Table 1.7 - Proficiency in Understanding Complex Texts: 57% below proficient, only 19% above proficient. [Please read Chapter 7 on Electrophilic substitution before coming to class….]
When I was still teaching, we found the single best predictor of success in Gen Chem was the ACT math score. That’s because the intro courses (for right or wrong)
are traditionally filled with mostly P-Chem concepts such as gas laws, equilibria etc. that feature easily-tested math problems. So today’s report is sad news.
Anecdotally, the rate of flagrant cheating is higher than ever ( IMHO, Chegg is a pox upon society). On top of that, we can watch who logs in to do homework, how
much time they spend on it, and if they download the extras that we provide…and THAT data is utterly depressing. And that effort shown has gotten worse over the years. The good students, the motivated ones, and the ones that try hard still exist, of course.
In my mind, the single biggest problem is that colleges are admitting too many students who are simply not ready for the rigor or demands of college. If students
need remedial courses, that work needs to done before they enroll. Presumably, many campuses drop a lot of time and effort into remedial courses when they could much better spend that effort providing smaller classes, recitation sections, peer learning and
other proven means to improve the success of the students that have been properly prepared for college. I could soapbox all day about the special athlete-only tutoring center, athlete-only computer lab, etc afforded our NCAA “student athletes” (and multimillion
dollar salary for our coaching staffs) while our students who had to work to pay their way through school couldn’t even get recitation sections in genchem (and before someone says sports bring in money that’s true for only a handful of schools and a loser
for all the rest).
I could go on all week about the benefits of trades and trade school as well as for deconstructing the whole traditional liberal arts model (not that it shouldn’t
exist - there’s much to be said for it, and folks should be free to pursue it) to allow for slim technical degrees at significantly lower cost and duration (as well as higher student satisfaction and better outcome).
Rob Toreki
Safety Emporium - Laboratory and Safety Supplies
https://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012
On Oct 13, 2022, at 5:18 AM, Ralph Stuart <ralph**At_Symbol_Here**rstuartcih.org> wrote:
Since when do students have the right to say a prof or course is toooo hard. I think it may be the caliber of student today.
I live and work with today’s undergraduates every day and the educational disruption they have faced over the last three years is mind-boggling to observe. As a result, mental health issues are rising throughout the student body, but particularly students whose high school preparation was also impacted by Covid. I can’t imagine trying to absorb all of the material I was exposed to as an undergraduate engineering student today.
I stopped taking Chemistry Department classes after Gen Chem, so I can’t comment on teaching methods most appropriate to organic or higher level courses, but I suspect that what worked to help students learn in 2019 is very different that what works in 2022. I think that the was part of the point of the article that Neal pointed to.
- Ralph
Ralph Stuart, CIH, CCHO
ralph**At_Symbol_Here**rstuartcih.org
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