DCHAS-L Archives, Oct 20, 2022 - Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

Jack, Interesting that you would assume that I "blame" the student for their lack of work ethic. I only said they don't have a work ethic. And most just don't. But if I'm asked, "who is to blame for that?" I must say it's the parents and schools. Why would a child work hard if they can get what they want without working hard? That would be stupid, and these work-ethic-less kids are not stupid.

As for the statistics on our failing educational system, just google the problem. The studies abound.

In addition, your example does not support your premise. You said: "... the one that really sticks out took a hit to their grade and submitted a day late so that they could take the time after a big game to really understand the concepts rather than try to whip through." And then you describe a very creative test essay. But the fact is that this is a student in sports. And like my field of entertainment, you can't fake your way through that activity. Either you've done the work, or you get booed and thrown out of the game. That rough treatment is really GOOD for young people. You can bulldoze a teacher, but not an audience. Audience retribution is swift and devastating. When the student takes their injured ego home and reflects, the good ones will see the only reasonable course of action is to be better prepared for the next audience.

The schools are failing because teachers and parents are no longer united in a kind of tough love audience. The students often play one off against the other to make life easy -- to their own detriment. And parents who want to protect their children from every little psychic pain are crippling them. Instead, the teachers, the parents, and the rules need to tighten up and deliver the same swift and devastating retribution as an audience. The student should have no place to appeal a failure. Instead, they need to accept that they failed and decide to be better prepared for the next encounter with tough love.

Do put your daughter on the stage, Mrs. Worthington.

Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Reidy <jreidy2**At_Symbol_Here**stanford.edu>
To: Monona Rossol <actsnyc**At_Symbol_Here**cs.com>; DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2022 7:34 pm
Subject: RE: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

Monona,

I don’t disagree that conferral of a degree should require a student to be able to handle the subject and do the work. My source of frustration remains, however, that a significant number of the comments throughout this discussion have been aimed not just at the level of knowledge imparted by the courses, but at the “work ethic” of the students. I of course don’t deny that there are students who take shortcuts and outright cheat; I reported a few of both myself as a TA. But I also graded stellar lab reports from football players; the one that really sticks out took a hit to their grade and submitted a day late so that they could take the time after a big game to really understand the concepts rather than try to whip through. I had a student take a somewhat silly question that used a fake material from Marvel Comics as a premise and break down why, at the chemical level, the question was fundamentally unsound.

We can all share many anecdotes, but at the end of the day I have yet to hear anything besides anecdote as evidence of falling standards. Regardless, however, if students are not sufficiently learning the material but are being told they are, I think we all agree that in such cases the institution, not the student, is at fault. Let’s just be careful that when analyzing such a circumstance we don’t conflate difficulty with efficacy and tradition with merit.

Sincerely,

Jack Reidy (he/him)

Research Safety Specialist, Assistant Chemical Hygiene Officer

Environmental Health & Safety

Stanford University

484 Oak Road, Stanford, CA, 94305

Tel: (650) 497-7614

I acknowledge that the land on which I live and work is the ancestral and unceded land of the Muwekma Ohlone Tribe. As an uninvited guest on these lands, I am a beneficiary of the ongoing displacement of the Ohlone people. I pay my respects to the Native peoples, past and present.

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:53 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

Jack, That's the hardest part of this whole thing. A degree that indicates proficiency in a particular subject cannot be granted on the basis of effort. The degree has lost its meaning unless it is granted only to those who can demonstrate the ability to handle the subject and do the work.

The programs for diversity and inclusion could include tutoring services, carrying fewer credits, and other accommodations. I also think there should be no limit to how many times one could take a course and try to pass those tests. It doesn't really matter how long it takes to get to proficiency, only that the person is proficient. And no one should discriminate against anyone who is working to overcome educational deficits over time.

Many of the things you bring up below are disturbing and thought provoking. They require changes in attitudes and methods. But none of them are a reason to grant degrees that are meaningless and make it likely that the recipient will qualify for a job that they are not equipped to do.

Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Reidy <jreidy2**At_Symbol_Here**STANFORD.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Fri, Oct 14, 2022 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

All,

I agree with Monona that “education as a business” is a plague upon society. I don’t have sufficient time to go into detail on my feelings on the matter because that usually takes at least an hour of talking very quickly.

With that said, I am begging you all to consider your words more carefully. I joined this listserv when I was 25. I’m now 30. I am part of that generation you are saying is poorly educated, had it too easy, and has no work ethic. I would like you all to explain to me in what ways you think I am lazy and insufficiently educated. I know how hard I worked. I know how hard my friends worked. I know how hard the students I have taught worked. I don’t want to hear anyone say “Oh, I didn’t mean you” because you didn’t even say “present company excluded,” you simply made blanket statements. Those blanket statements include me, my friends, and numerous colleagues who are part of this community, and I think if such statements are going to be made in the professional environment of this venue of discussion then they should be explained. I would additionally be interested in hearing DCHAS leadership’s opinion on this. How does this reconcile with the ACS’ stated goal regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion? If the division and ACS as a whole claim to hold diversity, equity, and inclusion as important principles, I would expect to hear the leaders who have espoused those principles defend them, and I hope to hear that soon.

I am also surprised to see so many people falling into the “appeal to tradition” logical fallacy, especially those who have decried it (if not necessarily by name) before. I think it’s safe to say that most (if not all) of us here have been very frustrated when trying to get someone to adopt a safer method of work, only to be told “that’s how we’ve always done it.” The fact that education is different now does not mean that it is worse, even if it truly is easier (something which I am in no way convinced of). Many aspects of the education system have changed: children are allowed to write using their left hands, teachers aren’t allowed to beat students as punishment, mouth pipetting is forbidden in laboratories, etc. I fail to see why making learning fun is a problem. I feel it is quite well-established that increased student engagement leads to better learning outcomes. Do you think a student is more likely to be engaged if they’re happy and enjoying the subject, or if they’re miserable? What is the basis for these criticisms? Has scientific progress come to a screeching halt while I wasn’t looking? Has there been some string of disasters caused by a lack of chemical knowledge amongst young workers that haven’t made the headlines Ralph sends us three times a week? Many educators used to do the “rainbow flame demonstration,” are we now in favor of that because it’s how school used to be?

I am not saying all changes that have occurred are good, or that we have to like them. There are certainly things wrong. But if you’re going to so vociferously denigrate such changes and the people affected by them in a professional setting, I would have expected you to at least do us all the courtesy of providing some form of concrete evidence. It is one thing to share negative opinions on their own when complaining about a public entity like a government department or a company, but if you’re going to share negative opinions about people who are ostensibly your peers you should have something besides anecdote to back it up, especially if you’re sharing such opinions to the very same subjects of the criticism.

Sincerely,

Jack Reidy (he/him)

Research Safety Specialist, Assistant Chemical Hygiene Officer

Environmental Health & Safety

Stanford University

484 Oak Road, Stanford, CA, 94305

Tel: (650) 497-7614

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Marjorie Samples
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 7:38 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

I agree wholeheartedly with Monona! The “business model” for colleges is very damaging and very frustrating for many professors like myself.

Thank you Monona, you always hit the nail on the head!

Marjorie Samples

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 13, 2022, at 6:59 PM, pzavon**At_Symbol_Here**rochester.rr.com wrote:

Send the attendant away. She is not needed.

Peter Zavon, MS, CIH
Penfield, NY

PZAVON**At_Symbol_Here**Rochester.rr.com

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 3:25 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

The downfall began when Regan put colleges and universities on a "business" model basis. When colleges and universities must be profit making businesses, they have to appeal to their "clients" which are, sadly, the students. A college competes for students by promising a great football team, a place to drink and party, and to easily get a degree. No college could succeed by telling prospective students they are going to work their asses off, have little time for a private life, and actually might not make it to graduation if they aren't diligent and smart.

You all have zero chance of turning this around as long as the structure of colleges remains the same. And you need to throw out the teachers who sell that crap about learning can all be "fun." There are times learning is just plain hard. Teachers can sympathize and support, but the work must be done by the student. And learning to accept working hard is the best preparation for life and eventually making difficult things fun.

And I watched over the years as all the really hard courses in chemistry and art disappeared from the curriculum. For example, in art, we had an anatomy course requiring us to know the names of all the primary and secondary muscles, their origins and insertions, and be able to draw them free hand. The same with the 102 bones and drawing the hip, knee and shoulder joints free hand. When we passed this part of the course we progress to drawing from the nude model. That was like a revelation because we knew why the contours looked the way they did. The chalk and the brush just flew with confidence and understanding. NOW THE WORK HAD BECOME FUN.

Today, I pass the hallway drawing exhibits in art departments and lament the lack of understanding in the "potato" people I see drawn there.

It's the same in all the courses. The foundation isn't there. The work ethic isn't there.

The other thing that must change is allowing students to specialize too soon. Currently, they can graduate without any knowledge of whole areas of learning. In the past, you couldn't get a degree without a year of English, Math, Chemistry, Physics (two sciences) and history. People graduate today without any sense of the historical context into which their specialized field fits.

In other words, I believe we need a liberal arts education before we narrow into a specialty.

My attendant is here with the straight jacket, so I'll quit now. Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr Bob <drbob**At_Symbol_Here**FLOWSCIENCES.COM>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2022 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

Hi Rob!

Reminds me of a biological “continuous process” where each stage imposes impossible objectives on its predecessor. We need some thinking NOW that transends stages!

Dr. Bob Haugen

Director of Product and Technology Development

Flow Sciences, Inc.

910 332 4878

www.flowsciences.com
Linkedin  – Facebook – Youtube – Twitter

Customer Satisfaction Survey

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail, including all attachments, is directed in confidence solely to the person(s) to whom it is addressed, or an authorized recipient, and may not otherwise be distributed, copied or disclosed. The contents of this transmission may also be subject to intellectual property rights and all such rights are expressly claimed and are not waived. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views or policies of Flow Sciences Inc. or its employees.

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Info
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 1:12 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Maitland Jones story

New report today from the folks who bring you the ACT exam. Damn depressing. https://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/2022/2022-National-ACT-Profile-Report.pdf More data etc. here https://www.act.org/content/act/en/research/services-and-resources/data-and-visualization/grad-class-database-2022.html A few pertinent highlights to this thread:

22% of student met all four of the College Readiness Benchmark Scores. Average ACT scores now lowest since 1991.

Table 1.6 - Achievement in STEM: only 16% meet the STEM benchmark. Table 3.6 - College readiness: only 20.8% met math and English in the best prepared students, 22.2% for reading and and 21.7% for science. That’s of the *best prepared* students.

Table 1.7 - Proficiency in Understanding Complex Texts: 57% below proficient, only 19% above proficient. [Please read Chapter 7 on Electrophilic substitution before coming to class….]

When I was still teaching, we found the single best predictor of success in Gen Chem was the ACT math score. That’s because the intro courses (for right or wrong) are traditionally filled with mostly P-Chem concepts such as gas laws, equilibria etc. that feature easily-tested math problems. So today’s report is sad news.

Anecdotally, the rate of flagrant cheating is higher than ever ( IMHO, Chegg is a pox upon society). On top of that, we can watch who logs in to do homework, how much time they spend on it, and if they download the extras that we provide…and THAT data is utterly depressing. And that effort shown has gotten worse over the years. The good students, the motivated ones, and the ones that try hard still exist, of course.

In my mind, the single biggest problem is that colleges are admitting too many students who are simply not ready for the rigor or demands of college. If students need remedial courses, that work needs to done before they enroll. Presumably, many campuses drop a lot of time and effort into remedial courses when they could much better spend that effort providing smaller classes, recitation sections, peer learning and other proven means to improve the success of the students that have been properly prepared for college. I could soapbox all day about the special athlete-only tutoring center, athlete-only computer lab, etc afforded our NCAA “student athletes” (and multimillion dollar salary for our coaching staffs) while our students who had to work to pay their way through school couldn’t even get recitation sections in genchem (and before someone says sports bring in money that’s true for only a handful of schools and a loser for all the rest).

I could go on all week about the benefits of trades and trade school as well as for deconstructing the whole traditional liberal arts model (not that it shouldn’t exist - there’s much to be said for it, and folks should be free to pursue it) to allow for slim technical degrees at significantly lower cost and duration (as well as higher student satisfaction and better outcome).

Rob Toreki

Safety Emporium - Laboratory and Safety Supplies
https://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com  or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012

On Oct 13, 2022, at 5:18 AM, Ralph Stuart <ralph**At_Symbol_Here**rstuartcih.org> wrote:

Since when do students have the right to say a prof or course is toooo hard. I think it may be the caliber of student today.

I live and work with today’s undergraduates every day and the educational disruption they have faced over the last three years is mind-boggling to observe. As a result, mental health issues are rising throughout the student body, but particularly students whose high school preparation was also impacted by Covid. I can’t imagine trying to absorb all of the material I was exposed to as an undergraduate engineering student today.

I stopped taking Chemistry Department classes after Gen Chem, so I can’t comment on teaching methods most appropriate to organic or higher level courses, but I suspect that what worked to help students learn in 2019 is very different that what works in 2022. I think that the was part of the point of the article that Neal pointed to.

- Ralph

Ralph Stuart, CIH, CCHO
ralph**At_Symbol_Here**rstuartcih.org

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