DCHAS-L Archives, Nov 3, 2022 - Re: [DCHAS-L] Fire extinguisher use

My graduate school experience at UC Riverside is different from Jessica’s. I remember a hands-on live fire and online fire extinguisher training. My graduate lab did have a hood fire which a graduate student put out with an ABC extinguisher. The rumor mill was that the lab above us had several fires but would dump LN2 in the hood and extinguisher them. They decided not to use fire extinguishers (anymore) because EHS would find out an extinguisher was empty and start asking questions.

Both the academic institutions I’ve worked at previously, UCLA and UChicago, did hands on fire extinguisher training. UCLA was live fire with a dry powder. At UChicago, we were only able to use the BullEx for all incoming graduate and some undergrad students but they did get a contractor this year to do the live fire extinguisher training for Department of Chemistry graduate students. Currently, I’m at National Renewable Energy Lab where we do hands-on with a live fire and a water pressurized extinguisher that is strongly recommended for lab researchers and online for everyone.

Besides the hood fire in graduate school, I know of four other fires from my professional career (~10years) that had successfully been put out by graduate students and postdocs. One postdoc actually put out two separate fires, none of which he started. I awarded him with a cheap plastic firefighter helmet at a group meeting after the second fire. Two of the fire events that were successfully put out have been documented with a Lessons Learned on UChicago’s ORS webpage, https://researchsafety.uchicago.edu/programs/lessons-learned/. Writing this out makes it sound like a lot of places I’ve worked were really unsafe, but I choose to believe they were not that different from most universities, but people felt comfortable reporting and not using LN2 to hide it from the “safety cops”. Even though fires are serious, I tried to keep a positive attitude. I also tried to show appreciation and humor when a fire was reported without injuries.

Researchers are never required to fight a fire, as a lot of fire departments won’t even attempt to fight a lab fire but contain it to a lab. Priority for training should be to focus on notification and evacuation, but I strongly recommend hands on training on how to fight a fire. The BullEx systems are decent and no mess to clean, but highly recommend the live fire for at least chemical researchers. Personally, when I bought my first home, I made my wife practice with a fire extinguisher on a waste basket in the fire pit.

Jim Wright, Ph.D

(he, him, his)

Biological and Chemical Safety Programs Lead| ESH&Q

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)

15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401

303-384-6647 | M: 720-695-0791

james.wright**At_Symbol_Here**nrel.gov| www.nrel.gov

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Jessica Martin
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 10:26 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Fire extinguisher use

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of NREL. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

John,

That is interesting what you said about sand buckets. I grew up with auto mechanics and wood workers. They had buckets of sand available for small fires typically caused by the grease/oil they worked with. My husband is a broadcast engineer and he mentioned that the DirecTV sites have buckets of sand available all over the place for small fires that you would not want to spray water on (i.e. electrical, grease, batteries). When I then started working in labs later in life, it made sense to me that some labs had sand available - especially if they were working with chemicals that would be bad to throw water on. To be clear, the sand was meant for SMALL FIRES. You should never be trying to personally battle some wild blaze with a bucket of sand.

As an undergrad at Heritage University studying chemistry, I was NOT provided with hands-on fire extinguisher training. When I was hired (as an undergrad) as a lab tech by that same institution to prepare materials for labs and help in labs as necessary, I was NOT provided with hands-on fire extinguisher training.

When I started at UConn as a graduate student in the department of chemistry and a teaching assistant, I was NOT provided with hands-on fire extinguisher training. We were told by the department that they did not want us using the fire extinguishers under any circumstances. EHS verbally supported this position saying that, under any fire circumstances, they wanted us to just evacuate.

This means I went through a 9-year chemistry education having never been formally taught hands-on how to use a fire extinguisher.

I believe that they felt they were ensuring that we wouldn’t stay in the building battling a big fire. The actual result is that all of us were using what we knew coming in to the department to put out small fires and not reporting them since we were told to NEVER FIGHT ANY FIRES.

Best,

Jessica A. Martin, Ph.D.

NSF Graduate Research Fellow (2018-2021)

Joint Safety Team, Founding Member (2018-2021)

Pinkhassik Group, Department of Chemistry (2016-2021)

University of Connecticut

323-327-3974

jessica.a.martin**At_Symbol_Here**uconn.edu

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicaannemartin/

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On Nov 3, 2022, at 10:28 AM, John Callen <jbcallen**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM> wrote:

*Message sent from a system outside of UConn.*

David & All,

From my recollection, fifty- sixty years ago, most undergraduate chemistry labs allowed only the TA’s and staff to use fire extinguishers. Depending upon the university, often there would be two buckets of sand in opposite corners of each lab to handle and contain small bench fires and two buckets of dry sulphur powder in the other two corners to handle mercury spills. Depending upon the incident, the students were allowed the control the fire or spill either the sand or sulphur powder. I think that today that sand and sulphur practice has been terminated due to the potential mixing them up and students throwing sulphur on the fire and sand to contain the mercury. Some institutions today have may have one or more ABC and D fire extinguishers depending upon the size of the lab but also only allow TA’s and staff who have been trained/certified to use them. There are even a few institutions who have an alarm activated if the fire extinguisher is removed from its wall mounting.

All My Best,

John Callen, PhD

Retired

ACS/DCHAS Founding Member

On Nov 3, 2022, at 08:35, David C. Finster <dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**wittenberg.edu> wrote:

It has come to my attention (anecdotally) that some academic institutions, as a matter of local policy, forbid students to use fire extinguishers. I am thinking more of research, than teaching, labs in this regard. I think this is a wrong-headed policy since some small fires can be easily extinguished using fire extinguishers (usually ABC) that are required to be in labs. Extinguishers are designed for use (using the PASS method) by untrained persons - although I would always argue for hands-on training. I would not favor the policy that requires extinguisher use (as this could lead someone attempting to inappropriately fight a “too large” fire) but forbidding use seems foolish.

I ask the list: 1) How common (do you think) is the policy of forbidding use? and 2) what are the arguments for this “no use” policy?

Dave

David C. Finster
Professor Emeritus, Department of Chemistry
Wittenberg University

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