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Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] School Incident with Dry Ice
Date: Mar 1, 2024 01:24 UTC
Author: Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [External] [DCHAS-L] Remembering Ralph
Date: Mar 1, 2024 02:32 UTC
Author: Doug Cody <dsc1950**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
From: Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] School Incident with Dry Ice
Date: Mar 1, 2024 01:32 UTC
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Message-ID: <1783648039.1522043.1709256758769**At_Symbol_Here**mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <038e01da6b64$427b7620$c7726260$@twc.com>
Well stated Monona. However, you left out one important variable and that is the amount of dry ice being used, compared to the room volume, existing ventilation, etc., makes it virtually impossible to predict. However, CO2 is readily measured and can be responded to if the responsible officials know what to use, the variables inherent in whatever they are measuring with and the standards they need to follow. The focus needs to be on education, then they can respond accordingly. Additionally, I would add good documentation practices to show parents as well as Administrators why the hierarchy of controls needs to be applied appropriately.
BruceV
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2024 3:58 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] School Incident with Dry Ice
First let’s agree with the many studies that show at 1000 ppm CO2, both children and adults show reduced mental acuity as demonstrated by tests. And let’s also agree that most schools have lousy ventilation. By the afternoon in particular, there are many studies showing 2000 to 3000 ppm CO2 is common in schools, especially in poorer communities. ASHRAE OKs up to 1200 ppm (700 ppm over ambient which is now in cities 450 to 500 ppm)
Now let’s look at converting ice to gas: 1 # dry ice = 8.566 ft3 of CO2 gas.
If we use a small room 20 x 16 x 8 ft = 2560 ft3 (I use this size because it is the size of the room in which dry ice killed 3 people and put 7 in the hospital), then the 8.566 ft3 is 0.33 % of 2560 ft3. And 0.33 % CO2 = 3300 ppm CO2 which is unhealthy.
But you are adding that 1# of dry ice CO2 to the CO2 already in the room. If they follow ASHRAE then 3300 + 1200 = 4500 ppm
If they are one of those schools with the poor ventilation, then they are way over OSHA PEL of 5000 ppm – for children!
NOW THE KICKER. The most common size of dry ice blocks is 10 pounds. If that gets converted even partially to gas, there are some serious CO2 levels. And remember also that the gas is colder and denser than the room air and will tend concentrate more toward the floor. And children’s breathing zones are lower than those of adults.
I don’t think we can chalk this up to hysteria without knowing a lot more.
Monona
On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 11:34:58 AM EST, Info <info**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com> wrote:
I can’t think of any scenario with dry ice in this situation that would have caused this. You’d have to a significantly elevated level to feel something, at least 2,000 to 5,000 ppm, and the amount of CO2 you can bring into a classroom is what, a couple of pounds? The room would have to be hermetically sealed or you’d have to be huffing the stuff.
There’s either something massively left out of this story or it’s a case of chemophobic mass hysteria (guess that’s called mass psychogenic illness these days given the misogynistic origin/premise of the word hysteria). See, for example, https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2000/1215/p2655.html and https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-groupthink-2671595
Similar reports have been seen in the literature, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10631279/ and there have been cases of MPI reported at vaccination centers as well https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12814329/
Rob Toreki
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On Feb 24, 2024, at 7:30 PM, Monique Wilhelm <biocmst**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM> wrote:
I do not have any additional details. Although I do suggest anyone working with hazardous materials with groups (or otherwise) to do a risk assessment and have appropriate controls in place as well as plans for any incidents that could occur.
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