On Apr 2, 2024, at 12:38 PM, Benjamin Chew <000005dbd69f3537-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU> wrote:

When I graduated with my bachelor's degree, one of my professors told me, "Congratulations. You are now a professional chemist and are now responsible for your actions", which was both encouraging and scary. 

In the first month of grad school, all 1st year students went through hands on fire extinguisher training, including fire basics like the fire triangle/tetrahedron, and more importantly, when to NOT use one. 

This came in handy a few months later when I was TAing a lab and an undergrad decided it would be a good idea to preheat a dry beaker before adding ether (completely disregarding the written instructions). I remember hearing a gasp from the other side of the room. The undergrads were frozen in place staring at the beaker. Seeing that it was contained in the beaker, I was able to take a watch glass and covered the beaker to put it out and close the hood sash. I felt comfortable enough that I could use the extinguisher if I wanted to, but also knew enough to not immediately reach for it for a very small incipient fire before it could spread and get out of control. Plus, knowing the force put out by the CO2 extinguisher, I would run the risk of knocking over the beaker and spreading the fire throughout the hood. 

In my professional life in industry, we trained every new employee on at least the basics (video) of fire extinguisher training. Larger companies could afford to provide annual hands on training, most smaller ones have to settle for annual video training (mainly a risk assessment decision). From that perspective, it would be nice if future training was just reinforcing concepts new graduates should know about. 

Keep in mind that many undergrads may work part time in a professor's lab, and they may not go through the same training as the other grad students. Or, in my case, as a senior, I TA'd the freshman chemistry lab, and I did not have fire extinguisher training at that point. So, it is easy to fall in the cracks when everyone assumes undergrads know these things. 

In my last job, we hired a lot of part time students and new graduates, and this was a new concept to most of them. 

So, providing a baseline training is not a bad idea and can only serve them in the future (both at work and in the home). I can say that I am pretty sure I am the only person in my family that has actually discharged a fire extinguisher. They still get nervous when I have an extinguisher ready when I am deep frying a turkey...

Ben

On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 08:50:45 AM PDT, davivid <davivid**At_Symbol_Here**well.com> wrote:

When I went through fire extinguisher training ( back in the 1900's) it
was explained to us that the main purpose of the extinguisher was to
allow us to get to the door. Placing the extinguisher by the door was
not recommended.

Dave Lane
CSO
Zyviva Laboraoris

On 3/29/24 4:07 PM, Monona Rossol wrote:
> Over the 50 years I've lived here, I've been in 5 different fires in
> this old tenement.  Thought I'd bought the farm during one where I was
> trapped and sat it out in a bathtub full of water holding my cat. When I
> heard the firemen breaking down doors I went to my door and opened it. 
> I can still hear the fireman yelling through his mask, "Jesus Christ
> lady, get back in there."   Seems they didn't know I was there and I was
> the only one not evacuated.
>
> For weeks, I was the only apartment in my half of the building that had
> a secure door.
>
> I have a 16.5# ABC extinguisher by the door.  Wouldn't be without one.
> The training everyone got putting out the pan of gasoline at one of the
> opera companies I worked at in the 1990s is the sum of my knowledge. 
> But it going to have to do.
>
> Monona
>
> On Friday, March 29, 2024 at 06:37:37 PM EDT, James Kaufman
> <jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafetyinstitute.org> wrote:
>
>
> What about in your home?  ... Jim
>
>
> PS.  LSI now has virtual lab inspections, safety program evaluations,
> document reviews, plus courses and seminars ... all virtual. And, a
> complimentary,  updated version of our classic Laboratory Safety
> Guidelines is now available on our website ...
> https://www.labsafety.org/product/lab-safety-rules
> <https://www.labsafety.org/product/lab-safety-rules>
>
> *James A. Kaufman, PhD*
>
> Founder/President Emeritus
>
> *The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)*
>
> A Non-profit Educational Organization
>
>    for Safety in Science, Industry, and Education
>
> 192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252
>
> (O) 508-647-1900   (F) 508-647-0062   (C) 508-574-6264
>
> Skype: labsafe; 508-401-7406 jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org
> <mailto:jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org>www.labsafety.org <http://www.labsafety.org/>
>
>
> */Teach, Learn, and Practice Science Safely/*
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 12:06 PM Richard Palluzi
> <0000041636217548-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**listserv.siu.edu
> <mailto:0000041636217548-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**listserv.siu.edu>> wrote:
>
>    If you are in that situation then the designer of the laboratory
>    made a terrible error and never provided ascend way out or placed
>    the casework in a manner not allowed by NFPA 45. Even with fire
>    extinguisher training, a real fire can, too easily, get away from a
>    poorly trained person and create a needless hazard. My answer is
>    similar to one give before. Get out shutting down anything you can
>    safely shut off on your way out and wait for the fire department or
>    trained responders.____
>
>    __ __
>
>    __ __
>
>    Richard Palluzi ____
>
>    BE(ChE), ME(ChE), PE, CSP,FAIChE____
>
>    __ __
>
>    *Pilot plant and laboratory consulting, safety, design, reviews, and
>    training____*
>
>    www.linkedin.com/in/richardppalluzillc/
>    <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardppalluzillc/>____
>
>    www.pilotplants.us <http://www.pilotplants.us/> ____
>
>    __ __
>
>    Richard P Palluzi LLC____
>
>    72 Summit Drive____
>
>    Basking Ridge, NJ 07920____
>
>    rpalluzi**At_Symbol_Here**verizon.net <mailto:rpalluzi**At_Symbol_Here**verizon.net>____
>
>    908-285-3782____
>
>    __ __
>
>    *From:*LABSAFETY-L Discussion List <LABSAFETY-L**At_Symbol_Here**LISTSERV.SIU.EDU
>    <mailto:LABSAFETY-L**At_Symbol_Here**LISTSERV.SIU.EDU>> *On Behalf Of *James Kaufman
>    *Sent:* Friday, March 29, 2024 11:43 AM
>    *To:* LABSAFETY-L**At_Symbol_Here**LISTSERV.SIU.EDU <mailto:LABSAFETY-L**At_Symbol_Here**LISTSERV.SIU.EDU>
>    *Subject:* Fwd: [DCHAS-L] Fire extinguisher training____
>
>    __ __
>
>
>    ____
>
>    __ __
>
>    ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>    From: *James Kaufman* <jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafetyinstitute.org
>    <mailto:jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafetyinstitute.org>>
>    Date: Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 11:40 AM
>    Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Fire extinguisher training
>    To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety
>    <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**princeton.edu <mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**princeton.edu>>____
>
>    __ __
>
>    My concern is the one time you must use the extinguisher.  You are
>    trapped and the only way out is to get past the fire.  This is no
>    time to learn how to use a fire extinguisher ... Jim
>    ____
>
>    __ __
>
>    PS.  LSI now has virtual lab inspections, safety program
>    evaluations, document reviews, plus courses and seminars ... all
>    virtual.  And, a complimentary,  updated version of our classic
>    Laboratory Safety Guidelines is now available on our website ...
>    https://www.labsafety.org/product/lab-safety-rules
>    <https://www.labsafety.org/product/lab-safety-rules>____
>
>    ____
>
>    *James A. Kaufman, PhD*____
>
>    Founder/President Emeritus____
>
>    ____
>
>    *The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)*____
>
>    A Non-profit Educational Organization ____
>
>        for Safety in Science, Industry, and Education____
>
>    192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252____
>
>    (O) 508-647-1900   (F) 508-647-0062   (C) 508-574-6264 ____
>
>    Skype: labsafe; 508-401-7406 jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org
>    <mailto:jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org>www.labsafety.org
>    <http://www.labsafety.org/>____
>
>    __ __
>
>    */Teach, Learn, and Practice Science Safely/*____
>
>    ____
>
>    __ __
>
>    __ __
>
>    __ __
>
>    On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 11:34 AM Benjamin Ruekberg
>    <bruekberg**At_Symbol_Here**uri.edu <mailto:bruekberg**At_Symbol_Here**uri.edu>> wrote:____
>
>        Thank you Dr. Rechtin.  You have made a point that strengthens
>        my position, in that what you said can be paraphrased as the old
>        saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  Indeed, an
>        insufficiently trained student could endanger themself by trying
>        to extinguish a fire.  The other feature of an extensive
>        training would be that fires can sneak around behind you or
>        block your exit or suddenly get more intense.  This is why I
>        suggest that in-case-of-fire training should be limited shutting
>        down experiments (conditions permitting) and get out of the
>        building (presumably to a prearranged assembly area where the
>        instructor can make sure everyone got out).____
>
>        Thank you very much,____
>
>        Ben____
>
>        __ __
>
>        On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 4:17 PM Tammy M. Lutz-Rechtin
>        <tlutzrec**At_Symbol_Here**uark.edu <mailto:tlutzrec**At_Symbol_Here**uark.edu>> wrote:____
>
>            What the student thinks constitutes fire extinguisher
>            training, may not be what I think it means. For instance,
>            taking an online fire safety training that teaches the
>            basics of PASS is very different than having hands on
>            experience or intensive or specific training for the
>            worksite or lab. I suspect most students are referring to
>            taking a module online. ____
>
>            __ __
>
>            Regards, ____
>
>            Tammy Rechtin____
>
>            __ __
>
>            __ __
>
>            Get Outlook for iOS
>            <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_o0ukef&d=DwMGaQ&c=dWz0sRZOjEnYSN4E4J0dug&r=zI15ZRCThp9VYQU-DZ2FR-LVQUxBn0F2mS_sU5u2DpU&m=AmI0oEMZ9LqfofuA4tj2aqlq1va4Olq7et6lGlg4rMr87cCoT7REUeCc1GW49PIB&s=P19vPUCE5IEPE16l6uIp6Ej5xa9wqIj9vzrnVQEVSwg&e=>____
>
>            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>            *From:*ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety
>            <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU <mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>> on
>            behalf of Jeffrey Lewin <jclewin**At_Symbol_Here**MTU.EDU
>            <mailto:jclewin**At_Symbol_Here**MTU.EDU>>
>            *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 10:35:32 AM
>            *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU <mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
>            <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU <mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>>
>            *Subject:* Re: [DCHAS-L] Fire extinguisher training ____
>
>            ____
>
>            Note, there is a typo in the
>            citation:  DOI:10.1021/acs.jchemed.3c01299 (no "0" at the
>            end). ____
>
>            __ __
>
>            It might also be useful to look at where the data came from:
>            Supporting information
>            <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__pubs.acs.org_doi_suppl_10.1021_acs.jchemed.3c01299_suppl-5Ffile_ed3c01299-5Fsi-5F001.pdf&d=DwMGaQ&c=dWz0sRZOjEnYSN4E4J0dug&r=zI15ZRCThp9VYQU-DZ2FR-LVQUxBn0F2mS_sU5u2DpU&m=AmI0oEMZ9LqfofuA4tj2aqlq1va4Olq7et6lGlg4rMr87cCoT7REUeCc1GW49PIB&s=PHq9GwiAYU2Op5e323EWYah60RricYdP_THKjNOS3kc&e=> The survey appears to be of graduate students on safety training they received as an undergraduate, including their experience as an undergraduate researcher.____
>
>            __ __
>
>            Of the 41% that received fire extinguisher training, only 13
>            percent actually discharged a fire extinguisher.____
>
>            __ __
>
>            Personally, I would not oppose fire extinguisher training
>            for anyone, but as Ben points out, in an undergraduate
>            teaching laboratory the emphasis should be on safely
>            evacuating the lab and how to notify emergency services.____
>
>            __ __
>
>            The article has lots of other interesting tidbits on safety
>            experience as undergraduates - using SDSs, using PubChem,
>            introduction to RAMP, etc.____
>
>            __ __
>
>            Jeff____
>
>            __ __
>
>            Jeff____
>
>            __ __
>
>            __ __
>
>            __ __
>
>            On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 11:03 AM Benjamin Ruekberg
>            <bruekberg**At_Symbol_Here**uri.edu <mailto:bruekberg**At_Symbol_Here**uri.edu>> wrote:____
>
>                Hello, ____
>
>                __ __
>
>                I was wondering how the group members feel about fire
>                extinguisher training as a part of safety training in
>                undergraduate laboratory courses.____
>
>                __ __
>
>                A recent article in /Journal of Chemical Education
>                /(DOI:10.1021/acs.jchemed.3c012990) indicated that
>                approximately 45% of undergraduates were given fire
>                extinguisher training as part of their chemistry
>                laboratory safety training.____
>
>                __ __
>
>                While this is useful knowledge in general, it does not
>                seem relevant to undergraduate chemical safety
>                training.  In case of a fire, students should not
>                attempt to put out the fire, but rather turn off
>                electricity and gas for their experiments (conditions
>                permitting), pull the fire alarm, and evacuate the
>                building.  It might well be argued that training in the
>                use of fire extinguishers could be interpreted by some
>                students as encouragement to use a fire extinguisher to
>                fight a laboratory fire--constituting a training in
>                unsafe behavior.____
>
>                __ __
>
>                Thus, it would seem that the time spent in fire
>                extinguisher training would be much better spent on
>                important safety issues.____
>
>                __ __
>
>                That is just my opinion regarding only undergraduate
>                courses, not necessarily undergraduate or graduate
>                research.  Am I missing something or do CHAS members
>                agree?____
>
>                __ __
>
>                Thank you very much,____
>
>                __ __
>
>                Ben____
>
>                --- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list,
>                contact the Divisional membership chair at
>                membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org <mailto:membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org> ____
>
>
>            ____
>
>            __ __
>
>            -- ____
>
>            Jeff Lewin ____
>
>            Director of Chemical Laboratory Operations____
>
>            Research Integrity Office____
>
>            Laboratory Operations____
>
>            205 Lakeshore Center ____
>
>            Michigan Technological University____
>
>            __ __
>
>            --- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list,
>            contact the Divisional membership chair at
>            membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org <mailto:membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org> ____
>
>            --- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list,
>            contact the Divisional membership chair at
>            membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org <mailto:membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org> ____
>
>        --- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact
>        the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
>        <mailto:membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org> ____
>
> --- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the
> Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
> <mailto:membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org>
> --- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the
> Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
> <mailto:membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org>

---
For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org