Jessica,

 

I’ve never heard of it as part of training for laboratory work. The folks at Periodic Videos did do a demonstration of a diethyl zinc fire:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpwlfvERUFc

 

Chris

 

 

________________________________

Christopher M. Kolodziej, Ph.D.
Chemical Hygiene Officer

UCLA Environment, Health & Safety | Chemical Safety

 

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My working hours may not be your working hours. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside of your normal work schedule.

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Neal Langerman
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2025 7:57 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Controlled pyrophoric fire?

 

During the haydays of Chemical Safety Associates, Inc hands-on training (1983-1995) we (Eugene Ngai, Al Mossman, and I) developed a hands-on response training course for the semiconductor industry. This included a "controlled" silane release in a custom-built gas safety cabinet. Participants were able to see up close and respond to an actual silane fire. We did at least 50-70 of these courses all over the world. During the program, everyone was in high level fire protection gear including bunker suits and SCBAs. During the many evolutions, we experienced several "non-ignition events" which are exceedingly high risk. All were handled safely. 

 

We also did a demonstration of an organic metal pyrophoric liquid (not R-Li) for a client, the local air quality regulators, and local FD.  This was not hands-on for the participants. As the demonstrator, I was in high level PPE as above.

 

Finally, we demonstrated routinely the combination of a powerful oxidizer (isocyanuric acid) and brake fluid. We could do this in standard level C protection, as the reaction has an approximately 90 second delay before ignition which the reaction proceeds.

In all of these examples, the demonstrations and activities were closely supervised by highly experienced operators and extreme attention to every detail was practiced. We did a "lessons learned" debrief after every evolution.

 

Needless to say, these demonstrations were very expensive and required extensive prep work. While we had some unexpected events, we never had an injury or uncontrolled fire.

 

I totally concur with Craig, these activities are not to be undertaken casually.

 

Feel free to contact me directly if you want more details.

 

Neal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALERT! The email address: "neal**At_Symbol_Here**chemical-safety.com" was shut down on 31 December 2024. Please verify you are using "chemsaf**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com". Please update your contact books.

 

NEAL LANGERMAN, PhD

 Please respond via chemsaf**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com.

+1 (619) 990-4908

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 6, 2025 at 5:41 AM Craig Merlic <merlic**At_Symbol_Here**chem.ucla.edu> wrote:

Jessica,

 

Sounds like a bad idea.

 

Many fires from pyrophorics will be over in a few seconds, so action is limited to the secondary fires. For example, fires from solutions of tert-butyllithium, diisobutylaluminum hydride, and trimethylaluminum or even solid lithium aluminum hydride are instantaneous flashes.  For some solid pyrophorics the fire takes time to burn through the quantity of material, so actions can be taken, but then you create a hazardous situation.

 

Real case: I took charge of a small fire involving a few grams of white phosphorous. The fire could be put out using a dry chemical fire extinguisher or a class D fire extinguisher, but as soon as the material was agitated, it burst back into flames. So the pile had to be left to burn out. The same could happen with a metal fire.  In theory, one could attempt to wrap up a smothered pyrophoric solid without letting it burn out, but you would have to create an inert atmosphere so that it did not re-ignite while you were moving it. Not easy.

 

Thinking about solid sodium or potassium, they are stored under oil to keep them from igniting. So why not add oil back onto a burning chunk of metal to smother the fire? Because the standard oil is mineral oil – a hydrocarbon that will be ignited by the white hot burning metal. So the fire only gets worse.

 

Overall, a pyrophoric fire would not be a simple hands-on safety training exercise.

 

Craig

 

Craig A. Merlic

Professor of Chemistry, UCLA Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry

Executive Director , UC Center for Laboratory Safety

http://cls.ucla.edu

Los Angeles, CA  90095-1569

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> on behalf of "jmartin54321**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com" <jmartin54321**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 5, 2025 at 5:28 AM
To: <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Controlled pyrophoric fire?

 

Has anyone here ever attempted a controlled pyrophoric fire as a part of a hands-on safety training?

 

Jessica A. Martin, Ph.D.

323-327-3974

jmartin54321**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com

 

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