Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 23:45:05 -0500
Reply-To: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Andrew Gross <gross.drew**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS
In-Reply-To: <B1331E0BABBF2F41ADBB549EF89EA74A032923AF79AF**At_Symbol_Here**WITTFSVS.wittenberg.edu>

I'm really sorry if I come across a little harsh here, and oddly generally the opposite stance I take; but WERE TALKING ABOUT STUDENTS....KIDS!!! Let me ask you this, first its OK to handle 0.1N HCL fine no real dermal hazard with a quick rinse, but now the bio department adopts your successful policy. Now the kid gets something on his hand that doesn't sting a bit...but what he really took home was a little ecoli they were working with, which, although harmless, mutates...like ecoli likes to do and boom...you got yourself an outbreat. OK, a little outlandish....but insert disaster at any point...it could happen and chances are something bad will happen, what is more likely is little suzy's parents suing you for the little red mark left by the acid and you can use your newly saved money to settle with them. You can warn them about the hazards of working no glove...but this is America and they will win. -Andrew On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 8:57 PM, David C. Finster w rote: > We make gloves available, but I personally encourage students to wear > them only in situations where they are warranted. In my judgment, in man y > labs the chemicals in use provide no significant skin hazard, especially > when a quick rinse with readily-available tap water is possible even in > instances where perhaps some dermal hazard might exist (for extended > exposure.) The skin is a pretty good barrier, but there are surely > chemicals that can destroy and/or penetrate skin. For some dermal hazard s, > the gloves that might =93be routinely available=94 in lab may not provide > protection, either, so unlike splash goggles that provide virtually > all-encompassing eye protection, =93gloves=94 might not protect the skin > depending upon the chemical and the glove. Wearing the wrong glove may be > worse than wearing no glove. And, this email thread is about =93student > labs=94 where many of the most dangerous dermal hazards would be avoided in > the first place. (HF in general chemistry? I think not!) > > > > Also, unlike goggles, gloves are disposable, which incurs the cost that > prompted this email thread. I don=92t =93discourage=94 glove use, but (I think > that) some students use them more routinely than others, and perhaps more > than necessary (perhaps related to bouts of chemophobia that may not be > warranted). Some students realize that gloves become uncomfortable to w ear > after awhile. Safety overrides comfort (as with some goggles, for some > students), to be sure, but when there is no need for gloves why endure > discomfort? Gloves may or may not hinder manipulations; in principle th ey > shouldn=92t, but inexperienced users don=92t make what others might consi der > =93good judgment=94 in many situations. > > > > Finally, I recall reading (about 40 years ago) some human behavior study > that indicated that some drivers drove faster when wearing seat belts (wh en > these were new devices in cars) since they =93felt safer=94 wearing the s eat > belt and therefore =93felt safer to drive faster.=94 (This was hardly th e > intended effect of wearing seat belts, and I=92d guess not a universal > response for all personality types.) But, I wonder, if some students won =92t > feel somewhat less need to be careful about spilling solutions or solvent s > when they are wearing protective gloves? Just speculation; no data, not > even pseudo-data like an anecdote! > > > > It could be argued that it is prudent to wear gloves all of the time (jus t > as we mandate splash goggles all of the time) but for me, the arguments > above about cost, comfort, lack of need in many lab situations, and the > possibility of using the wrong glove material all argue for a more temper ed, > occasional use of gloves. Of course, one idiosyncratic allergic reactio n > by one student out of a thousand can lead to universal CYA-motivated use > that, in my judgment, could end up doing more damage than good over the l ong > haul for the other 999+ that follow. Alas. > > > > Dave > > > > P.S. Here is a list of resources that may be helpful regarding glove > selection: > > > > http://www.allsafetyproducts.biz/site/323655/page/74172 > > This chart is sorted by categories of chemicals. Gloves types are > indicated; no thickness information. > > http://safety.nmsu.edu/programs/chem_safety/hazcom_PPE-resistance_guide.h tm > > This chart has an alphabetical list of chemicals. Gloves types are > indicated; no thickness information. > > http://safety.nmsu.edu/programs/chem_safety/hazcom_PPE_glove_guide.htm > > General categories and characteristics of glove materials. > > http://www.bestglove.com/site/chemrest/default.aspx > > Allows users to search by either specific chemical or specific gloves. > Extensive information provided. > > http://www.des.umd.edu/ls/gloves.html > > Alphabetical listing of chemicals. Several glove materials listed, with > thickness indicated. > > http://www.saftgard.com/anonymous/SolvaGard1.pdf > > Information on nitrile gloves for many chemicals. > > http://www.mapaglove.com/ChemicalSearch.cfm?id=1 > > Searchable database. > > > http://www.northsafety.com/ClientFormsImages/NorthSafety/CorpSite/E8D15F2 E-1F59-454F-B8F0-147FA2B9D81D.pdf > > PDF file with many gloves and chemical listed. > > > http://www.ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_8thEditionChemicalResistanceGuid e.pdf > > http://www.ansellpro.com/specware/ > > This chart has an alphabetical list of chemicals. Gloves types are > indicated; relatively thick gloves tested. > > > > > > > > David C. Finster > Professor of Chemistry > University Chemical Hygiene Officer > Department of Chemistry > Wittenberg University > dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**wittenberg.edu > > > > *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] *On Behalf > Of *Debbie M. Decker > *Sent:* Friday, March 05, 2010 6:53 PM > > *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU > *Subject:* Re: [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS > > > > We provide them in our undergraduate chemistry/biochemistry labs, amid so me > gnashing of teeth over the cost! We do require students to purchase thei r > own safety goggles. I don=92t know what other undergraduate lab classes > provide - biology, geology, etc. > > > > Debbie > > ----------------------------- > > Debbie M. Decker, Campus Chemical Safety Officer > Environmental Health and Safety > University of California, Davis > 1 Shields Ave. > Davis, CA 95616 > (530)754-7964/(530)752-4527 (FAX) > dmdecker**At_Symbol_Here**ucdavis.edu > Co-Conspirator to Make the World A > Better Place -- Visit www.HeroicStories.comand join the conspiracy > > > > > > > > *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] *On Behalf > Of *Kennedy, Sheila > *Sent:* Friday, March 05, 2010 3:32 PM > *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU > *Subject:* [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS > > > > As the staff of the Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Labs, we have been > asked to propose ideas for saving money, as budgets are only getting tigh ter > over the next few years. One idea proposed is that we stop providing glov es > ad lib. to students, but have them buy & bring their own. We currently > supply either nitrile or PVC examination (thin, single-use) gloves in our > labs. > > Do you provide/require gloves for student labs? > > > > *Sheila * > > -- > Sheila M. Kennedy, CHO > Safety Coordinator > Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Laboratories > University of California, San Diego > (858) 534-0221 > > >

I'm really sorry if I come across a little harsh here, and oddly genera lly the opposite stance I take; but WERE TALKING ABOUT STUDENTS....KIDS!!! =A0 Let me ask you this, first its OK to handle 0.1N HCL fine no real derma l hazard with a quick rinse, but now the bio department adopts your success ful policy.=A0 Now the kid gets something on his hand that doesn't stin g a bit...but what he really took home was a little ecoli they were working with, which, although harmless, mutates...like ecoli likes to do and boom. ..you got yourself an outbreat.=A0 OK, a little outlandish....but insert di saster at any point...it could happen and chances are something bad will ha ppen, what is more likely is little suzy's parents suing you for the li ttle red mark left by the acid and you can use your newly saved money to se ttle with them.=A0 You can warn them about the hazards of working no glove. ..but this is America and they will win.

-Andrew

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 8:57 P M, David C. Finster <dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**wittenberg.edu> wrote:

We make glo ves available, but I personally encourage students to wear them only in situations where they ar e warranted.=A0 In my judgment, in many labs the chemicals in use provide no significant skin hazard, especially when a quick rinse with readily-available tap water is possible even in instances where perhaps some dermal hazard might exist (for extende d exposure.)=A0 The skin is a pretty good barrier, but there are surely chemicals that can destroy and/or penetrate skin.=A0 For some dermal hazards, the gloves that might =93be routinely available=94 in lab may not provide protection, either, so unlike splash goggles that provide virtu ally all-encompassing eye protection, =93gloves=94 might not protect the skin depending upon the chemical and the glove.=A0 =A0=A0Wearing the wrong glove may be worse than wearing no glove.=A0 And, this email thread i s about =93student labs=94=A0 where many of the most dangerous dermal hazards would be avoided in the first place.=A0 (HF in general chemistry?=A0 I think not!)

=A0< /p>

Also, unlik e goggles, gloves are disposable, which incurs the cost that prompted this email thread.=A0 I don =92t =93discourage=94 glove use, but (I think that) some students use them more routinely than others, and perhaps more than necessary (perhaps relate d to bouts of chemophobia that may not be warranted).=A0 Some students realize that gloves =A0become uncomfortable to wear after awhile.=A0 Safety overrid es comfort (as with some goggles, for some students), to be sure, but when the re is no need for gloves why endure discomfort? =A0=A0Gloves may or may not hinder manipulations; in principle they shouldn=92t, but inexperienced users don=92t make what others might consider =93good judgment=94 in many situations.=A0

=A0< /p>

Finally, I recall reading (about 40 years ago) some human behavior study that indicated that some drivers dr ove faster when wearing seat belts (when these were new devices in cars) since they =93felt safer=94 wearing the seat belt and therefore =93felt safer to drive faster.=94=A0 (This was hardly the intended effect of wearing seat belts, and I=92d guess not a universal response for all personality types.)=A0 But, I wonder, if some students won=92t=A0 feel somewhat less need to be careful about spilling solutions or solvents when they are wearing protective gloves?=A0 Just speculation; no data, not even pseudo-data like an anecdote!

=A0< /p>

It could be argued that it is prudent to wear gloves all of the time (just as we mandate splash goggles a ll of the time) but for me, the arguments above about cost, comfort, lack of n eed in many lab situations, and the possibility of using the wrong glove materi al all argue for a more tempered, occasional use of gloves.=A0 =A0Of course, one idiosyncratic allergic reaction by one student out of a thousand can le ad to universal CYA-motivated use that, in my judgment, could end up doing mor e damage than good over the long haul for the other 999+ that follow.=A0 Alas .

=A0< /p>

Dave

=A0< /p>

P.S.=A0 Her e is a list of resources that may be helpful regarding glove selection:

=A0< /p>

http://www.allsafetyproducts.biz/ site/323655/page/74172

This chart is sorted by categories of chemic als.=A0 Gloves types are indicated; no thickness information.

http://safety .nmsu.edu/programs/chem_safety/hazcom_PPE-resistance_guide.htm

This chart has an alphabetical list of chemi cals.=A0 Gloves types are indicated; no thickness information.

http://safety.nmsu .edu/programs/chem_safety/hazcom_PPE_glove_guide.htm

General categories and characteristics of gl ove materials.

http://www.bestglove.com/site/chemres t/default.aspx

Allows users to search by either specific ch emical or specific gloves.=A0 Extensive information provided.

http://www.des.umd.edu/ls/gloves.html

Alphabetical listing of chemicals.=A0 Severa l glove materials listed, with thickness indicated.

http://www.saftgard.com/anonymous/SolvaG ard1.pdf

Information on nitrile gloves for many chemi cals.

http://www.mapaglove.com/ChemicalSearc h.cfm?id=1

Searchable database.

http://www.northsafety.com/ClientFormsImages/NorthSafety/ CorpSite/E8D15F2E-1F59-454F-B8F0-147FA2B9D81D.pdf

PDF file with many gloves and chemical liste d.

http://www .ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_8thEditionChemicalResistanceGuide.pdf

http://www.ansellpro.com/specware/

This chart has an alphabetical list of chemi cals.=A0 Gloves types are indicated; relatively thick gloves tested.

=A0< /p>

=A0< /p>

=A0< /p>

David C. Finster
Professor of Chemistry
University Chemical Hygiene Officer
Department of Chemistry
Wittenberg University
dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**witte nberg.edu

=A0< /p>

From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHA S-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Debbie M. Decker
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 6:53 PM

Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS

=A0

We provide them in our undergraduate chemistry/biochemistry labs, amid some gnashing of teeth over the cost!=A0 We do require students to purchase their own safety goggles.=A0 I don=92t know what other undergraduate lab classes provide - biology, geology, etc.

=A0< /p>

Debbie

----------- ------------------

Debbie M. Decker, Campus Chemical Safety Officer
Environmental Health and Safety
University of California, Davis
1 Shields Ave.
Davis, CA=A0 95616
(530)754-7964/(530)752-4527 (FAX)
dmdecker**At_Symbol_Here**ucdavis. edu
Co-Conspirator to Make the World A
Better Place -- Visit www.HeroicStories.com and join the conspiracy

=A0< /p>

=A0< /p>

=A0< /p>

From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHA S-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Kennedy, Sheila
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:32 PM
To: DCHAS- L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
Subject: [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS

=A0

As the staff of the Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Labs, we have been asked to propose ideas for saving money, as bud gets are only getting tighter over the next few years. One idea proposed is that we stop providing gloves ad lib. to students, but have them buy & bring th eir own. We currently supply either nitrile or PVC examination (thin, single-us e) gloves in our labs.

Do you provide/require gloves for student labs?

=A0

Sheila

--
Sheila M. Kennedy, CHO
Safety Coordinator
Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Laboratories
University of California, San Diego
(858) 534-0221

=A0


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