DCHAS-L Discussion List Archive
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:44:07 -0800
Reply-To: neal**At_Symbol_Here**chemical-safety.com
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: NEAL LANGERMAN <neal**At_Symbol_Here**CHEMICAL-SAFETY.COM>
Organization: ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY
Subject: Re: New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs Perspective)"
In-Reply-To: <E482EB4D-5A4A-41BF-A100-9884D9E4AD5A**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com>
Rob -
I really hate to disagree with you, but you are wrong. Piranha has been
used
since the 60's in both semiconductor R&D and production with very few
problems. The issue is NOT the hazard, which you are addressing, but
the
risk, which must be managed.
So, if the PI makes the case for using "tetra-ethyl-death", it is our
job to
help make it happen safely.
I cannot buy into telling a PI (I was one for 15 years) "you cannot do
that"
Sorry, even though I tend to agree with most of your postings, you are
wrong
here.
nl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
--------
The information contained in this message is privileged and confidential
and
protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the
intended
recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this
message
to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If
you
have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
=A0
ACSafety has a new address:
NEAL LANGERMAN
ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY, Inc.
PO Box 152329
SAN DIEGO CA 92195
011(619) 990-4908 (phone, 24/7)
www.chemical-safety.com
We no longer support FAX.
Please contact me before sending any packages or courier delivery. The
address for those items is:
5340 Caminito Cachorro
San Diego CA 92105
-----Original Message-----
From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On Behalf Of
ILPI
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 4:40 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs
Perspective)"
No matter how good an SOP you make, piranha is just too dangerous to
use. Its use should be discouraged, if not banned.
The firsthand account I referenced in my earlier response in this
thread (http://yarchive.net/chem/piranha_solution.html ) highlights
the issue - no matter how well prepared you are, no matter how good
the procedures, it takes just ONE **minor** slip with piranha and you
could be severely injured or die. Period. There is no redundant
safety system, there is no PPE that can protect you from that kind of
explosion, there is NO margin for error. Make a simple mistake like
not seeing 20 mL of nearly invisible acetone in the receiving flask
(or assume it's water, piranha solution etc.) and boom.
In the academic setting, we are already painfully aware of what
engrained laboratory culture/procedures can lead to (the UCLA incident
being just one). All it takes is one person not remembering to tell
the new guy about keeping acetone away, one language/comprehension
issue, or one person thinking about the upcoming Superbowl party, and
the incident I described will happen all over again. It is insane to
use such a hazardous material for cleaning glassware - a routine task
during which people often let their guards down because they are done
their "dangerous" experiment. Cleaning glassware - we are not talking
about some irreplaceable step in the synthetic method to make taxol or
something here.
Yes, piranha cleans great, but there are equally great and ***far***
safer alternatives. Using piranha is like insisting on using
nitroglycerin instead of C-4.
I've used 500 mL bottles of t-butyllithium, pure SiF4, phosgene,
things that will crosslink your DNA, boiling benze extractions, you
name it. I've seen explosions, fires, injuries in the lab. I once
held a 30 ml vial of diethylzinc that started spurting flames and
there is absolutely NOTHING in the lab that I have encountered that
scares me more than piranha solution. I wish we had cell phone
cameras back when I saw witnessed that piranha incident, because you
would never believe that a person could lose that much blood in five
seconds. It was simply unbelievable how large a pool we encountered
when we opened the door to that lab. Yes, explosions are always a
risk in the lab, but to *deliberately* invite them in order to clean
glassware is, again, insane.
Rob "tell me what you really think about piranha" Toreki
=========================
=========================
====
Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names
you know and trust. Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012
On Jan 18, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Harvey, Doug wrote:
> The video references the EH&S SOP from the outset of the scene
(http://blink.ucsd.edu/safety/research-lab/chemical/specific/piranha.html
> ) and it is a discussion not the actual transfer.
>
> Douglas Harvey
> Environment, Health & Safety, CCHO
> Chemical Safety Officer
> University of California, San Diego
> Office phone: (858) 822-1579
> Cell phone: (858) 583-3257
> Email: daharvey**At_Symbol_Here**ucsd.edu
> Mail code: 0089
>
> From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On
> Behalf Of Leslie Coop
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:34 PM
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs
> Perspective)"
>
> It definitely has some terrific examples. I agree about the safety
> goggles. The hood sashes open side to side (especially with the
> piranha solution) is also disturbing.
>
> Leslie
>
>
>
> --
> Leslie B. Coop, CCHO | Lab Manager, Safety Coordinator | Chemistry
> Department
> University of Arkansas at Little Rock | 2801 S. University Ave. |
> Little Rock, AR 72204
> 501-569-3192 (o) | 501-590-6026 (c) | lbcoop**At_Symbol_Here**ualr.edu
>
Previous post | Top of Page | Next post
