From: roberth_hill <roberth_hill**At_Symbol_Here**MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 'Large fireball' injures students in chemistry experiment gone wrong
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 12:42:31 -0500
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Message-ID: k3a5kwj189pogl5rc01ysy7p.1511545351079**At_Symbol_Here**email.android.com


I think this comes back again to inadequate safety education.  Since universities are not including safety into the curriculum, students  (future teachers) are not learning safety and thus are not developing safety ethics. This will continue to happen until students begin to receive a solid education in safety  (not the current minimal safety training). 

Bob Hill 



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Ernest Lippert <ernielippert**At_Symbol_Here**TOAST.NET>
Date: 11/24/17 11:58 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 'Large fireball' injures students in chemistry experiment gone wrong

Neither banning nor enforcement is the answer. What is needed is common sense. Is this something that can be learned? I think its basics can be taught along with ethics through group discussion and review of all sorts of past accidents and occurrences. This teaching ought to begin early on, even in grade school. Perhaps James Kaufman has the beginnings of a database that would form the core of such instruction.
Ernie Lippert, Ph.D. (retired) 
 
 
 

From: "James Kaufman" <jim**At_Symbol_Here**LABSAFETY.ORG>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 11:13 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 'Large fireball' injures students in chemistry experiment gone wrong
 
Ed wrote:
"Reading this article, if I were an outside observer, I'd say this was an "experiment gone wrong."  In fact, it was a stunt that should never have been done in the first place."
 
I feel differently.  I prefer to teach how to handle chemical properly.  In our collection of over 5,000 examples of lab accidents, no one was hurt when there was a proper shield between it and them.
 
Banning is not the solution.  Better enforcement would help.  ... Jim
 

James A. Kaufman, Ph.D.

President/CEO
The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)
A Nonprofit Educational Organization for 
Safety in Science, Industry, and Education

192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252
508-647-1900  Fax: 508-647-0062 
Cell: 508-574-6264  Res: 781-237-1335
Skype: labsafe; 508-319-1225
 

jim**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org  www.labsafety.org

Teach, Learn, and Practice  Science Safely

 

 
On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 7:01 AM, McGrath Edward J <Edward.McGrath**At_Symbol_Here**redclay.k12.de.us> wrote:

Good morning everybody:

 

Whenever an incident like this is reported, we all find ourselves asking, "haven't we sent this message before loud and clear?  Another fireball, another flashback, more injuries.  Who isn't hearing this message?" 

 

Maybe we need to have a discussion with the press.  Reading this article, if I were an outside observer, I'd say this was an "experiment gone wrong."  In fact, it was a stunt that should never have been done in the first place.  

 

The press reports these things in vague terms at first--especially if an investigation is in process--they aren't given sufficient information.  However, when more facts come to light, I wonder if they have a person knowledgeable about the science contributing to the story.  I'd love to see ACS draft a procedure giving guidelines to reporters covering a story involving a chemical accident.  Sometimes the reports give incorrect information or minimize the importance of what could be a true cautionary tale.  

 

Eddie McGrath
 
Edward J. McGrath
Science Supervisor
Red Clay Consolidated School District
1502 Spruce Avenue
Wilmington DE  19805
 
 
We did not inherit the Earth from our ancestors.  We borrowed it from our children.
 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Mark Pichaj <mark.pichaj**At_Symbol_Here**BIOLA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 1:52 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 'Large fireball' injures students in chemistry experiment gone wrong
 
Friends,
 
   What really frosts my jets (in addition to the injuries, of course, and the bad name given to chem demos) is the lack of details in the news release.  I want to know exactly what they were doing, and exactly what went wrong, so I can exactly not do that in the future myself.  I can guess that it might have been a flame-test demonstration of various salts...but am not sure how that could go wrong.  Details, please!
 
 
yours,
Mark
 
 
Mark Adolf Pichaj    Assistant Professor    Department of Chemistry, Physics & Engineering    Bradley 2    x4866
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                   
 
 
On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Samuella B. Sigmann <sigmannsb**At_Symbol_Here**appstate.edu> wrote:
..."150 between 1998 and 2002" and the then ones listed since 2011 does not even include the events between 2002 and 2011 which is where Calais Weber's incident falls. 
S-
 
On 11/23/2017 8:27 AM, Harry Elston wrote:

You're going to have to move to a smaller font or go double column soon. 

Harry

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Samuella B. Sigmann
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 6:25 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 'Large fireball' injures students in chemistry experiment gone wrong

 

Their definition of "experiment" is also significantly different than the one I use....  Watching colored flames burn hardly evokes the scientific method.  I have updated the presentation slide...
 

  1. Oklahoma City, OK - November 2011
  1. Maple Grove, MN - December 2011
  1. Frisco, TX - September 2013
  1. Avondale, AZ  - November , 2013
  1. New York, NY - January 2014
  1. Reno, NV - September 2014
  1. Denver, CO - September 2014
  1. Raymond, IL - October, 2014
  1. Chicago, IL - November, 2014
  1. Tallahassee, FL - May 2015
  1. Washington, DC - October 30, 2015
  1. Perth Amboy, NJ - May 24, 2017
  1. New York, NY - November 22, 2017


 

And over a decade ago, the Associated Press reported that at least 150 students had been seriously injured in school laboratory accidents between 1998 and 2002. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/beacon-teacher-faulted-experiment-leaves-students-badly-burned-article-1.1565533


... at least they will get into a "good" university.  (Sorry, I could not resist).  Everyone have a safe Thanksgiving.
S-

On 11/22/2017 5:35 PM, Stuart, Ralph wrote:

I am willing to guess that the school's report that "there were no hazardous materials involved" relies on a definition of "hazardous materials" different from the one I use...
 
- Ralph
 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/large-fireball-injures-students-in-chemistry-experiment-gone-wrong/ar-BBFvnmw?li=BBnbcA1
 
'Large fireball' injures students in chemistry experiment gone wrong
 
Four students at an elite all-girls Catholic high school in New York City reportedly suffered burns and respiratory injuries Wednesday after a "large fireball" exploded in a chemistry experiment gone wrong.
 
A teacher at the school was conducting a flame experiment in front of a class and the flame apparently grew too large, Sister Patricia Wolf, president of St. Catherine Academy, told NBC New York.
 
"This morning an accident occurred during a demonstration in which several students were singed by a flame in the chemistry lab," the school said in a statement. "Four students were sent to the hospital. There were no hazardous materials involved."
 
The teacher was distraught after the incident, Wolf said, but all the students are expected to be okay, NBC New York reported. The parents of all the students were notified by text.
 
The private school, which charges around $9,000 per year in tuition, has "a 100 percent college acceptance rate to some of the finest colleges and universities in the world," its website says.
 
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We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do everything with nothing. Teresa Arnold paraphrased from Konstantin Josef Jirecek (1854 - 1918)

 

Samuella B. Sigmann, MS, NRCC-CHO

Senior Lecturer/Safety Committee Chair/Director of Stockroom

A. R. Smith Department of Chemistry

Appalachian State University

525 Rivers Street

Boone, NC 28608

Phone: 828 262 2755

Fax: 828 262 6558

Email: sigmannsb**At_Symbol_Here**appstate.edu

 

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******************************************************************************

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do everything with nothing. Teresa Arnold paraphrased from Konstantin Josef Jirecek (1854 - 1918)

 

Samuella B. Sigmann, MS, NRCC-CHO

Senior Lecturer/Safety Committee Chair/Director of Stockroom

A. R. Smith Department of Chemistry

Appalachian State University

525 Rivers Street

Boone, NC 28608

Phone: 828 262 2755

Fax: 828 262 6558

Email: sigmannsb**At_Symbol_Here**appstate.edu

 

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