From: Laurence Doemeny <ldoemeny**At_Symbol_Here**COX.NET>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Estimating Teaching Lab Occupancy
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 16:55:17 -0800
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Message-ID: 001201d37151$8bdfb560$a39f2020$**At_Symbol_Here**net
In-Reply-To


Bruce,

NIOSH and the Public Health Service was a wonderful place to work and learn. Most of my time was spent in Cincinnati and about six months in Morgantown WV.

The comments that I made were from my on the job training and government sponsored training in contract/project officer management, labor relations, some safety, security, etc. In Cincinnati we had several large construction projects that I came under my operation. Our contracted architectural firm developed the scope of work and the plans along with our facilities engineer and contracting officer. Present at all the meetings (which were usually weekly) were the contracting officer, the project officer, the contracted architectural firm representative(s), our safety officer and myself. As you can tell, I had many fine people from which to learn. I believe the contracting officer was the person taking notes or one of our clerical staff. The contractor also took notes.

 

These weekly meetings were necessary to assess the progress of the project, address expected and unexpected issues and to gather information for the purposes of to informing the employees the progress of the projects and of any interruptions that may occur. Prior to beginning the project, we held an all hands meeting to inform the employees and their representatives what we were about to undertake and to address any of their concerns. Keep in mind this is NIOSH and many of the employees have visited other employer sites to address H&S concerns. This meeting was helpful in the design of several of our projects.

 

I can't address your point about which set of drawings is more important, the original set or the as built set. The major projects were roof replacement (175 sq. ft. and the other about 100 sq. ft.). Each roof was very different with different requirements. I am not sure if the architect made changes or notes to changes to the original drawings but I believe that he did.

 

I was superficially involved in a new laboratory building for the Morgantown WV facility. First with a group that developed the programmatic requirements of the laboratory and later the preliminary lab concept. Several of us traveled to recently constructed research laboratories, gathered up some drawings and photos. These served as elements that the design contractor could use. That was the end of my involvement. After that the local management, the CDC and the General Services Administration takes over since it is new building construction. At least this is how I recall the process.

 

I cannot drive home the point of the value of weekly meetings (maybe even more). Close project management and a demonstrated interest by the management team should result in a successful product. I have observed that other contracted work (generally not construction work) that simply gives a deadline when the work should be completed and no intervening meetings usually results in problems and delays.

 

Disclaimer-These are my personal views and do not represent the views of my former employer.

 

Laurence Doemeny

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Van Scoy
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2017 2:38 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Estimating Teaching Lab Occupancy

 

Laurence,

Thank you for your observations based upon your experience.  I can only comment on the experiences that I observed. 

But, you presented  different perspectives that were equally, if not more significant than those that I experienced. 

In my case, I don't remember the architect stamping all pages of the design with his license.

We had meetings, minutes with coordination/sign-off of the minutes following the meetings.  But in the end, we were left with prints that were "as designed" (equivalent to a Cadillac), not corrected to as-built which was equivalent to a Chevet.  The long-term observation is which is more important?  

I am surprisingly amazed that you were able to be involved in the contract requirements.  Very well done!

BruceV

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Doemeny
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2017 1:16 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Estimating Teaching Lab Occupancy

 

I agree with everything that Bruce said in his reply to me.

 

Let me add a few comments based on my experience.

Make sure the architect has stamped all pages of the design with his license.

Be present at all discussions with the architect and engineers.

Get your critical needs addressed in the contract to avoid expensive contract modifications.

Be present on the walkthrough inspection when developing the punch- list prior to the final inspection and sign-off.

 

Laurence Doemeny

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Van Scoy
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 3:15 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Estimating Teaching Lab Occupancy

 

Laurence,

Prudent Practices was significantly revised in 2011 and is still available free from NAP.edu and maintained a basic  requirement (see section 9.B or pg. 213 or 9.C/pg. 219) for ventilation.  But Prudent Practices is to basic to be useful for design and you can't rely on NFPA for occupational exposure control, their emphasis is fire prevention. 

I strongly recommend following ACGIH's Industrial Ventilation: A Manual of Recommended Practice for Design, 29th Edition ALONG with Industrial Ventilation: A Manual of Recommended Practice for Operation and Maintenance, also 29th edition. 

I would also strongly recommend that if an architect acts as specified below, DOCUMENT, with citations AND copies to your attorney at every step-.

And, oh by the way, if one happens to mention "value engineering" ensure that EHS has to sign off on ALL design changes in the contract language UP FRONT.  Otherwise, a design may turn into a bait and switch with significant differences between as designed v. as built.  Also, make sure they are keeping up with the as-built drawings.  You could find yourself looking at specifications/prints later that are totally inaccurate. 

Just my personal opinions,

BruceV

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Doemeny
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 4:54 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Estimating Teaching Lab Occupancy

 

This citation is probably dated but it is a good starting point.  the book has a chapter on laboratory design.

 

Prudent Practices in the Laboratory

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Melissa Anderson
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:33 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Estimating Teaching Lab Occupancy

 

Hi DCHAS colleagues,

 

Does anyone know the best way to estimate occupancies for college teaching labs based on square footage and the exact sources for those estimates? I've seen several sources state 50 ft2 and cite the NFPA but I'm having trouble figuring out how to locate that specific information in the fire code. 

 

Also, does anyone know if that refers to gross or net (i.e. after benches/hoods/etc.) square footage?

 

If you want some context- I've include all the drama-laden details below.

 

Thanks,

Melissa Anderson

Instructor, Pasadena City College

 

 

Details for context (Warning: drama-ahead!): 

 

We're getting a new science building to replace our old building that was condemned for seismic issues. We just found out a month ago that the plans for the building were somehow finalized at the state chancellor's office without anyone's knowledge and that the submitted plans were designed in-house by someone in facilities rather than an actual architect. Based on our analysis, the new building will drop our lab enrollment capacity to almost 75% of what we can currently manage, which is 70% of what we where historically offering before our old building was condemned. (There are other issues, including that its five stories with one elevator.) We've been told very firmly that we can not make any changes to the building without losing our spot in the funding queue. (We're fine with this, the district board is not.)

 

When we talked to the architects about the square footage issue, they claimed that egress was the only issue for teaching lab occupancy and that they were unfamiliar with the 50 ft2/student value we were citing. [The architects were also rather mysteriously chosen since they didn't appear as one of the finalists selected by the committee. We've found several news articles about lawsuits involving code violations by this firm.)

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

Previous post   |  Top of Page   |   Next post



The content of this page reflects the personal opinion(s) of the author(s) only, not the American Chemical Society, ILPI, Safety Emporium, or any other party. Use of any information on this page is at the reader's own risk. Unauthorized reproduction of these materials is prohibited. Send questions/comments about the archive to secretary@dchas.org.
The maintenance and hosting of the DCHAS-L archive is provided through the generous support of Safety Emporium.