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Previous by Date: Subject: [DCHAS-L] FOUND: Goggles for an EXTRA wide face Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 at 5:23:16 PM Author: "Kennedy, Sheila" <s1kennedy**At_Symbol_Here**UCSD.EDU>

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The information being shared on this topic is pretty familiar. Anyone interested in taking on the challenge of writing up a summary paper of the pros and cons of drains for safety showers that I can include on the DCHAS web site for the next time the topic arises?

- Ralph

From: Samuella Sigmann
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 11 more messages RE: [DCHAS-L] Thoughts on some arguments against drains under safety showers
Date: October 3, 2018 at 6:23:07 PM EDT

I insisted on drains in our current renovations and nobody argued with me. They also mentioned that they are designed now to prevent the drying out and sewer gas issue. We will see..
Sammye
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From: Alan Hall
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] 11 more messages RE: [DCHAS-L] Thoughts on some arguments against drains under safety showers
Date: October 3, 2018 at 7:41:57 PM EDT

Et al,

Good comments, all.

Having privacy curtains might encourage chemically splashed folks to get in and stay in the shower for a reasonable amount of time (15 minutes per latest Z358-1 Standard -- new one coming up in 2019)

However, when I used to have to teach this for military mass decontamination of chemical warfare agents, I always posed the question: "Would you rather be naked and embarrased or dead?" One drop of Agent VX int he eye would kill you. According to some studies, you can get around 80% of the contaminants off by simply taking off soaked clothing, and the shower does the rest unless you have a better alternative flushing fluid. We were all medical folks then and had seen as much human anatomy as we ever needed to see. Life is worth being a bit embarrased for.

Alan
Alan H. Hall, M.D.

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From: "Peter Zavon"
Subject: RE: [DCHAS-L] 11 more messages RE: [DCHAS-L] Thoughts on some arguments against drains under safety showers
Date: October 3, 2018 at 8:55:56 PM EDT
To: "'ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety'"

If the safety showers are TESTED at an appropriate frequency, the test water can be discarded down the drain (even if initially collected in a drum), thus ensuring that the trap will not dry out, and avoiding the ergonomic hazards of transporting a great weight of water to another location for discard.

As to the fear of nasties going down that drain in a real event, the shower is triggered for a decontamination - not a massive spill - and the dilution factor will be huge, thus mitigating any concern about damaging the municipal water treatment facility or the environment. Combine that with the potential for loss of research data and equipment and the balance will likely fall to the side of a floor drain. Unfortunately this usually happens after such a loss, when a retrofit can be prohibitively disruptive, not to mention costly.

Peter Zavon, CIH
Penfield, NY

PZAVON**At_Symbol_Here**Rochester.rr.com

===
From: Alan Hall
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Thoughts on some arguments against drains under safety showers
Date: October 4, 2018 at 7:14:58 AM EDT

Et al,

To reiterate, quoting from the most current ANSI/ISEA Z358.1 Standard (2014), the flow rate for a safety shower should be "...a minimum of 75.5 liters per minute (20 gallons per minute) and for a minimum of 15 minutes" (Section 4.1 Performance of Emergency Showers"..

So let's pull out the handy-dany calculator here: 1,132.50 liters or 300 gallons.

And some architect doesn't want an adequate drain to deal with this? It almost defies comprehension. So the drywall gets soaked on several floors, mold develops, and you have sick staff, faculty, and students? The medical costs alone, not to mention if someone files a lawsuit over it? Who's going to pay for that? And considering the damage that may be done and the long-term costs?

We'll be having another meeting on the upcoming 2019 Z368.1 Standard in late November of this year. I can almost guantee that mandating floor drains will not be included for various reasons I have already discussed on this listserve. I don't anticipate that the flow rates will be changed, either. Most discussion will be on spray patterns and other matters.

There are other ways to deal with first aid for chemical splashes, but I am not at liberty to discuss them on this listserve and anyway they are not available in the US.

In the meantime, do as an Admiral once said: " Damn the torpeodos, full speed ahead." and stick to your guns and fight for adequate drains.

Alan
Alan H. Hall, M.D.
Medical Toxicologist

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