From: Yaritza Brinker <YBrinker**At_Symbol_Here**FELE.COM>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:54:55 +0000
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Message-ID: DM6PR05MB70527488BCA51A799540B1ECAD040**At_Symbol_Here**DM6PR05MB7052.namprd05.prod.outlook.com
In-Reply-To <30986621.190375.1602613487203**At_Symbol_Here**mail.yahoo.com>


I think it's gravely unethical to argue against herd immunity. Before you all lynch me… please put down your proverbial pitchforks and indulge me for a bit.

 

Vocabulary is important in all discussions. Especially true in hot-button ones.

 

From the CDC Glossary available at https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/terms/glossary.html

 

Community immunity: A situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community. Also known as herd immunity.

 

So, I'll say it again… I think it's gravely unethical to argue against herd immunity.

 

The following article from Johns Hopkins argues about how best to achieve herd immunity. That IS the actual issue facing the nation.

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/achieving-herd-immunity-with-covid19.html

 

Thank you,

 

Yaritza Brinker

260.827.5402

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 2:25 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

 

** External Email **

Absolutely unethical.  And I will be looking forward to the Disney stats this winter because of the indoor ventilation and sanitizing issues.  We know how to make it work indoors, but now we know the dang bug can last 28 days on a hard surface.  Oy.   Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Reinhardt, Peter <peter.reinhardt**At_Symbol_Here**YALE.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

I think it is unethical to advocate herd immunity because it would mean 500,000-2,100,000 preventable deaths in the U.S.

 

 

As safety professionals and human beings, we should support the use of simple safety measures (masks, distancing) to prevent even one death. That's ethics 101.

 

Regarding Disney World, being outdoors is a terrific mitigation measure for aerosol transmission. Winter will be challenge because we are indoors and the relative humidity is lower.

 

Pete Reinhardt, Yale EHS

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> on behalf of Rob Torkei <info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM>
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 11:46 AM
To: "DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU" <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

 

 

I had a discussion with a friend who believes masks don't stop the spread and that full-on herd immunity is the way to go. He pointed out the lack of super spreading at Disney World as an example of concerns being overblown: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/business/disney-world-coronavirus.html  (although there are some accusations of coverup and concerns about lack of contract tracing to people's home states).

 

When I looked into the Disney thing further, I was rather astonished:  https://www.disneytouristblog.com/faq-guide-face-masks-disney-world/  Disney has really tough mask rules with really high compliance.  In other words, my friend's example strongly supported my contentions about mask usage, not his.  But he didn't want to discuss it after I pointed this out.

 

Rob Toreki

 

 

 ======================================================

Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names

you know and trust.  Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com

esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com  or toll-free: (866) 326-5412

Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012

 

 

 

On Oct 13, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Yaritza Brinker <YBrinker**At_Symbol_Here**FELE.COM> wrote:

 

I think there are differences of opinion on how to best achieve heard immunity. Some think it's best to do so by vaccination and, in the meantime, we all hide from the virus. Some think it's best to expose those who are most likely to survive the virus, and hide those who are most likely to die from it.

 

These are simply two schools of thought. We should refrain from accusing each "camp" of being unethical or uncaring.. Those types of accusations keep us from having an honest discussion.

 

This pattern of behavior has taken hold of our society. It has given birth to the "silent majority". It needs to stop.

 

Thank you,

 

Yaritza Brinker

260.827.5402

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Ernest Lippert
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 1:05 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

 

** External Email **

It is interesting to reflect on how our actions affect others and, perhaps, ourselves? Remember that ethics is concerned with our correct behavior in a structured society. And isn't it a prime directive of safety culture to ensure that others don't get hurt?
Ernie Lippert

 

 

 


From: "ILPI Support" <info**At_Symbol_Here**ILPI.COM>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 11:39 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

 

I wasn't going to wade into this, but since we are getting into various analogies.

 

Seat belts protect more than the individual. They protect EMS workers who won't have to experience the PTSD trauma of unnecessarily scraping someone's brain off the pavement. They protect my insurance rates so that someone who is ejected from their vehicle doesn't end up needing millions of dollars of medical and rehabilitative care.  They protect family members who won't lose their breadwinner or have to declare bankruptcy to pay their medical bills.

 

Here are two more analogies:

 

1. I'm a good driver. I haven't had an at-fault accident.  In theory (unless I live in a no-fault state), I don't need auto insurance because my risk of an at-fault accident is very low and if I did cause one I have financial resources to cover the damage to another car or person.  However, the state (or State, depending on your worldview, I suppose) says I must have insurance in order to operate a motor vehicle on public roads.  Why?  To protect the other driver if I do cause an accident. By happenstance, that same government-mandated protection also covers/protects me.

 

2. I am amused by the small but vocal cadre who see modest mask requirements as a totalitarian abomination and at the same time fervently support leaders who call the press the enemy of the people, disparage and dismiss science, deliberately sow false distrust of our election system, and refuse to commit to a peaceful transfer of power.  It's like worrying about a hangnail when you have a compound fracture of the femur and are hours away from the nearest hospital.

 

It's a frickin' piece of cloth, not a diving helmet or spiked chastity belt.  Tens of millions of workers across the world wear masks all day long (medical, industrial, construction). It's trivial and if everyone did it for a couple weeks most of this goes away.  Two words: New Zealand. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54260925 

 

Rob Toreki

 

 ======================================================

Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names

you know and trust.  Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com

esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com  or toll-free: (866) 326-5412

Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012

 


 

 

On Oct 11, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Ray Cook <raycook**At_Symbol_Here**APEXHSE.COM> wrote:

 

Just my thoughts on this, not here to debate. I respect you all have your own opinions.

 

The first line of your response Monona defines the problem with this whole mask endeavor (..for my own good). As someone who has spent a career specifying personal protective equipment, I cannot follow the concept of PPE that must be worn by one individual to protect someone else. By definition, it is "personal" protection. I think most people are more than willing to do something for "their own good." If I am concerned about getting exposed to an airborne contaminant, I can wear an N100 respirator and at least feel like I am doing something to protect myself. However, wearing a surgical mask or whatever, is not for my own good. It is supposedly to protect everyone else, which I don't recall being my responsibility (except in a professional capacity).  Last I saw, many jurisdictions don't want you to protect yourself by wearing a real respirator with an exhalation valve as you then become a "threat" to others.  (So protecting self is bad, protecting others is your duty). 

 

Wearing a seat belt protects me. Forcing you to wear one to protect me does not, nor does it make sense. Not the same, but you see my point.  This virus is not a plague. People in high risk groups SHOULD protect themselves using appropriate measures. I am not clear at all on the logic of how responsibility became transferred from protecting  yourself (especially the vulnerable) to requiring all other individuals to submit to doing something undesirable/uncomfortable to theoretically protect other people, relying on the possibility that it may have some positive effect on preventing the spread of a 95-99 % survivable influenza. Not a strong driver here.. 

 

I do disagree with your statement that by not wearing a mask people are assaulting others. Normal life does not involve wearing a mask. Never has. Living life in fear of a largely survivable disease is unnecessary, and better protection is available for those who need it. I have more faith in our immune system than govts do.

 

Have a good week!
  

Regards,

 

Ray Cook, MS, CIH 2000-2016

CSP ret.

832-477-4454

I Cor 1:18

In omnia paratus

Sent from my iPhone

 

 

On Oct 11, 2020, at 5:18 AM, Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**lists.princeton.edu> wrote:
 

?

If big brother is sane and asking for me to do things for my own good, I have no problem.  And actually, the Oz big brother is only a threat to people who aren't doing what good practice and common sense dictates. Claiming the right to harm others by imprudent behavior in this pandemic is not freedom, it's assault.

 

I think the problem is you might think the masks that the Australians are talking about need fit testing.  That's not what they mean.  They just mean that they fit tight to the face leaving no obvious gaps.  So surgical masks and well-made cloth masks are fine.  And they include direction for making a good mask.

 

They also require it cover both the nose and the mouth.  I'd like to see the Oz Big Brother working over here -- maybe right in my neighborhood..

 

Monona
 

(snip)

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas




Electronic Transmission Confidentiality Notice

The information contained in this electronic transmission is private, confidential, the property of the sender, and intended for the use of the recipient(s), only. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information for any purpose is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender, YBrinker**At_Symbol_Here**fele.com, immediately by e-mail and then delete this message. Thank you.
[FE.EN.1]

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

 

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org Follow us on Twitter **At_Symbol_Here**acsdchas

Previous post   |  Top of Page   |   Next post



The content of this page reflects the personal opinion(s) of the author(s) only, not the American Chemical Society, ILPI, Safety Emporium, or any other party. Use of any information on this page is at the reader's own risk. Unauthorized reproduction of these materials is prohibited. Send questions/comments about the archive to secretary@dchas.org.
The maintenance and hosting of the DCHAS-L archive is provided through the generous support of Safety Emporium.