The incident that sparked the law suit at the beginning of this discussion was in a public school. Federal OSHA has NO jurisdiction over public schools, just as it lacks jurisdiction over any agency of state, county or municipal government. About half the states run their own approved OSHA programs, and THOSE programs do have jurisdiction over public schools and the like, as far as employee safety goes (nothing about student safety). But each such program is slightly different, even though they are all required to be "equivalent to" Federal OSHA in the level of safety they provide. But remember that half the states simply have none of that.

I suppose the state OSHA program in California or Oregon MIGHT investigate a student injury in a secondary school, but I would not be surprised to see that any such program routinely does not do that sort of thing.

Peter Zavon, CIH
Penfield, NY

PZAVON**At_Symbol_Here**Rochester.rr.com

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Harold Ingmire
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:59 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

From an earlier post, the issue of OSHA covering employees and not students (unless they are "working") is accurate, but the hazards to the teachers and other hazards are real. Good insight I hope for our kids (or grandkids) something can happen.

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Jeff Tenney
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:32 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

Please remember under OHSA, 29CFR1910 (section 5 a), OSHA have the power to pursue penalties if the employer, school, does not supply a place free of recognized hazards. I would say an uncontrolled open flame would qualify. Not having an eyewash when handling caustics, could be another fineable offense. There are rules in place but the employers lack the knowledge to make sure they are being enforced and/or protections are in place.

This biggest problem has always been training and education. It would be nice if the ACS would set up a free program (maybe a small fee like 20 dollars a year) for school systems or educators to have access to training material when it comes to demos. (I know am pushing it to someone else to do) That would address how to perform the experiment safely, high quality videos of those that cannot be done safely in most high school chemistry labs. We do have a division of chemical education.

If OSHA would just fine one of these incidents then maybe that would wake some systems up to getting some training for the teacher of at least forcing a review of the demo before it is performed to see how safe it is.

Jeff

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Harold Ingmire
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 9:56 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

Thank you - very interesting problems in industries I am not familiar with (arts). Maybe the liability insurance companies for schools should step up a bit.

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 9:21 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

You have never stumbled across statutes specific to education under OSHA because there aren't any.

EPA rules are usually industry- or process-specific and they have a bunch of rules specific to education.

But OSHA just divides their standards between Construction and General Industry (not counting Maritime). School employees do work that is usually under General Industry standards unless those employees are engaged in defined construction activities such as renovating, painting or decorating.

It's a rather clumsy system actually. And the people I deal with in both education and the theatrical and film industries have great difficulty in accepting that they are not "special." They are just another ordinary industry under OSHA and the rules all apply to them. They have trouble seeing the front lip of the stage as a fall hazard under General Industry and the construction of a set as coming under the Construction standards. Or they have difficulty understanding that the workers are under the Construction standards while building the set, but they have to design and build the set to meet General Industry safety standards because the Actors, set dressers, etc., who will access the set are General Industry workers.

So to with education. Most of the work comes under General Industry such as hazcom or lab standard, PPE, materials handling, etc. And there are the students. Young students do not come under OSHA so that leaves some interesting gaps filled usually by strict liability. College and/or grad students in some schools are under workers comp and OSHA, but often are not, again leaving it to liability.

But in theater and film, we have paid "workers" who are infants, young children and/or older children. Some of the OSHA rules designed for adults are applied to them and that is often a big problem for us, especially the PELs.

I can think of better ways to do this, but I've noticed no one has put me in charge.

Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Ingmire <hingmire**At_Symbol_Here**WHIPMIX.COM>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Tue, Oct 1, 2019 8:36 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

Are there any regulatory standards for education processes on safety? I have dealt with OSHA and DOT for decades, but never stumbled across statutes covering education specifically.

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Anthony Noce
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 6:47 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo

Bigger is NOT better?

Says who?

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