When using a Parr, have the apparatus in a dedicated hood, just as a dedicated hydrogen line should be. And don't use hydrogen outside a dedicated hood (i.e. empty and nothing else going on in it).
If you're trying to do the exploding balloons "experiment" to demonstrate stoichiometry, there are better ways than pandering to teenager desires for whiz-bang. Get serious.
My 2 cents,
Lee
-----Original Message-----
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Sent: Jul 15, 2023 11:14 AM
To: <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Filling balloons with hydrogen gas
My concern would be a leak from the balloon or the connection. In that case the escaping hydrogen could generate a change and it would be an ignitable atmosphere in the air.
Richard Palluzi
BE(ChE), ME(ChE), PE, CSP,FAIChE
Pilot plant and laboratory consulting, safety, design, reviews, and training
www.linkedin.com/in/richardppalluzillc/
www.pilotplants.us
Richard P Palluzi LLC
72 Summit Drive
Basking Ridge, NJ 07920
rpalluzi**At_Symbol_Here**verizon.net
908-285-3782
-----Original Message-----
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety On Behalf Of davivid
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 1:14 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Filling balloons with hydrogen gas
In order for static discharge to be an ignition hazard it must occur in a flammable mixture. This can be avoided by either purging the sealed system with an inert or preferably evacuating prior to introducing the hydrogen (or other flammable gas). Discharges that occur within the air-free system should not present a problem.
Dave Lane
Chief Science Officer
Artisyn Laboratories
On 7/14/23 7:18 AM, Richard Palluzi wrote:
> With respect to Jim, neither #1 nor #2 grounds the container if the glass or plastic is, as usual, an insulator. Only placing a conductive rod contacting the liquid is effective.
>
>
>
> Recognize that small liquid transfers, common in laboratory operations, are usually too slow and too little to generate much charge build up. Larger transfers (over 2 L) can easily generate ignitable discharges. Flowing streams through insulting tubing is a major problem.
>
>
>
> Richard Palluzi
>
> BE(ChE), ME(ChE), PE, CSP,FAIChE
>
>
>
> Pilot plant and laboratory consulting, safety, design, reviews, and
> training
>
>
> www.linkedin.com/in/richardppalluzillc/
>
> www.pilotplants.us
>
>
>
> Richard P Palluzi LLC
>
> 72 Summit Drive
>
> Basking Ridge, NJ 07920
>
> rpalluzi**At_Symbol_Here**verizon.net
>
> 908-285-3782
>
>
>
> From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety
> On Behalf Of James Kaufman
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 4:30 PM
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Filling balloons with hydrogen gas
>
>
>
> There are three major ways to ground glass and plastic containers:
>
>
>
> 1. Put a metal band around the container and run the ground wire off of it.
>
> 2. Rest the container on a grounded mat.
>
> 3. If chemical compatibility is not an issue, stick a metal rod with a ground wire on one end into the container.
>
>
>
> It can also be a good idea to ground yourself.
>
>
>
> PS. LSI now has virtual lab inspections, safety program evaluations,
> document reviews, plus courses and seminars ... all virtual. And, a
> complimentary, updated version of our classic Laboratory Safety
> Guidelines is now available on our website ...
> https://www.labsafety.org/product/lab-safety-rules
>
>
>
> James A. Kaufman, PhD
>
> Founder/President Emeritus
>
>
>
> The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)
>
> A Non-profit Educational Organization
>
> for Safety in Science, Industry, and Education
>
> 192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252
>
> (O) 508-647-1900 (F) 508-647-0062 (C) 508-574-6264
>
> Skype: labsafe; 508-401-7406 jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org www.labsafety.org
>
>
>
> Teach, Learn, and Practice Science Safely
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 4:12 PM davivid > wrote:
>
> Hi James
>
> I hadn't heard that it was possible to ground/bond non-conductors. How
> is this done?
>
> Thank you
> Dave Lane
>
> On 7/13/23 6:45 AM, James Kaufman wrote:
>> There are several ways to ground and bond plastic and glass
>> containers
>>
>> Please contact me directly for more information ... Jim
>>
>>
>> PS. LSI now has virtual lab inspections, safety program evaluations,
>> document reviews, plus courses and seminars ... all virtual. And, a
>> complimentary, updated version of our classic Laboratory Safety
>> Guidelines is now available on our website ...
>> https://www.labsafety.org/product/lab-safety-rules
>>
>>
>>
>> *James A. Kaufman, PhD*
>>
>> Founder/President Emeritus
>>
>>
>>
>> *The Laboratory Safety Institute (LSI)*
>>
>> A Non-profit Educational Organization
>>
>> for Safety in Science, Industry, and Education
>>
>> 192 Worcester Street, Natick, MA 01760-2252
>>
>> (O) 508-647-1900 (F) 508-647-0062 (C) 508-574-6264
>>
>> Skype: labsafe; 508-401-7406 jkaufman**At_Symbol_Here**labsafety.org www.labsafety.org
>>
>>
>> *Teach, Learn, and Practice Science Safely*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 1:31 PM Alyssa Brand > wrote:
>>
>>> Let me preface this with: I am no expert in the safe use of hydrogen gas.
>>> But I wonder why a balloon would be used rather than a dedicated,
>>> regulated gas line. My main concern with this would be the potential
>>> for ignition of the hydrogen due to a static electricity discharge,
>>> and I would think that using plastic components might not only
>>> increase the risk of a static discharge occurring, but prevent the
>>> use of bonding and grounding. If I'm entirely off base, feel free to ignore me. As I said, not an expert.
>>>
>>> Alyssa
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 10:54 AM davivid > wrote:
>>>
>>>> We do hydrogenations and hydrogenolysis in our lab in quantities of
>>>> up to several moles. The equipment is assembled in a hood. Hydrogen
>>>> is plumbed into the hood via 1/4" polyethylene tubing cable tied to
>>>> the drop ceiling from tanks located elsewhere in the lab. The
>>>> hydrogen regulator is set to deliver the lowest feasible pressure
>>>> and the outlet valve set to deliver the lowest feasible flow.
>>>>
>>>> The assembled equipment is charged with the reactants and solvents
>>>> then evacuated using a small diaphragm pump in the hood through a
>>>> stopcock. A two-way stopcock can be used but a three-way stopcock
>>>> is preferred as it does not require disconnection of the tubing
>>>> from the system when switching between evacuation and fill.
>>>> Hydrogen is then let into the evacuated system via the stopcock and
>>>> fills the balloon. The hydrogen flow can be shut off at the system
>>>> using the stopcock. If desired, the evacuation and fill procedure
>>>> can be repeated multiple times to flush residual air from the system.
>>>>
>>>> We use mylar balloons from the Dollar Store as they are more
>>>> capacious, stronger, less permeable, and more solvent resistant
>>>> than rubber balloons. If you go this route you will need to fit the
>>>> tubing several inches into the mouth of the balloon to reach past the internal valve.
>>>>
>>>> The attached photo shows the method we use to connect the balloons
>>>> to the system. A gas inlet adapter is fitted with Tygon tubing
>>>> which then connects to 1/4" polyethylene tubing. The joint between
>>>> the two types of tubing is secured by two wraps of cable tie and
>>>> sealed with grease. The tubing extends into the balloon to the
>>>> point indicated by the arrow. The joint between the balloon and the
>>>> 1/4" line is sealed with grease and fastened by wrapping several times with the ribbon from the balloon.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Dave Lane
>>>> Chief Science Officer
>>>> Artisyn Laboratories
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/6/23 12:27 PM, Laura Cunningham wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have recommendations on how to *safely* fill a balloon
>>>>> with
>>>> hydrogen? The hydrogen tank in this scenario is in an open lab, and
>>>> the hydrogen filled balloon is for a hydrogenation reaction. The
>>>> gas tank is located close enough to a fume hood that piping the
>>>> hydrogen into the fume hood might be feasible. Wondering what other
>>>> people’s experiences have been with this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
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