Safety Emporium eyewashes
Safety Emporium eyewashes

Interactive Learning Paradigms, Incorporated

DCHAS-L Discussion List Archive

About This Archive  |   DCHAS-L 2024 Index   |   DCHAS-L Yearly Index   |   DCHAS-L Home Page

About This Archive

DCHAS-L 2024 Index

DCHAS-L Yearly Index

DCHAS-L Home Page


Previous by Date

Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Storing ACS-grade acetic acid with ACS grade hydrochloric acid

Date: Feb 29, 2024 16:55 UTC

Author: Katie Woolard <00001be7d1161d21-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>

Next by Date

Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Storing ACS-grade acetic acid with ACS grade hydrochloric acid

Date: Feb 29, 2024 17:38 UTC

Author: Samuella Sigmann <sigmannsb**At_Symbol_Here**RETIRED.APPSTATE.EDU>

From: Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>

Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] School Incident with Dry Ice

Date: Feb 29, 2024 17:27 UTC

Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>

Message-ID: <1545060257.1387665.1709227622168**At_Symbol_Here**mail.yahoo.com>

In-Reply-To: <9A749F37-C525-47E1-810D-C90EC2839889**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com>

Demystify: 
Just rethink those numbers in a class room that is already at somewhere between 1000 and 3000 ppm CO2 to start with.  There are so many studies now of ventilation during the pandemic that showed schools as a rule (not as an exception) have rotten ventilation.  Right here in NYC, we have schools where the only ventilation in the classrooms is one or two windows that for safety reasons only open 3 - 6 inches.  And rooms some don't have windows that open at all.  (What really burned my cork was one of these schools had ordinary A-C units in the windows and told the teachers that this provided ventilation.)

So we need to know a lot about the actual room where this happened.

And it depends on the application.  If they are putting dry ice in water, the temperature of the water will affect the speed of generation.  

Once you remove a person from the high CO2 area, their blood gases should return to normal rather fast.  But they may have sustained damage nonetheless.

The thing you said that was absolutely true and on the mark was:  "I don’t think we will ever get more info on this case."  Schools are as protective of their administrators as big corporations.  Even if this goes to court, it is likely to be settled with a confidentiality agreement on the facts of the case.  I know so much stuff I can't say that I'm bursting at the seams.

Monona

 



On Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 11:11:25 AM EST, Info <info**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com> wrote:


Monona,

I have no reason to doubt your word (indeed, I trust it implicitly) and we are all bound by having zero information here, but I can’t see the CO2 being the cause here. 

Again, no evidence/info - but if the blood work of 19 people transported to the hospital showed elevated CO2 levels then I’m hard pressed to figure out why that wouldn't appear in the reports.

The average elementary classroom is 900 square feet: https://seatingchartmaker.app/articles/average-classroom-size-square-feet/

So assuming a 10 foot ceiling, that’s 9,000 cubic feet = 254,852 liters.  Ideal gas law gives us 22.41 L/mol, so in round numbers there are 11,372 moles of air in that classroom.

If we bring in a kg of dry ice (again, how much does one bring into a classroom?) and flash evaporate the entire thing that’s (1,000 g) / (44 g/mol) = 22.73 mol CO2.

That would get you to 2,000 ppm.  And since CO2 is heavier than air and tends to pool I suppose you can make the argument that at floor level they could be significantly higher…but that would be around their feet rather than noses..or were they all sitting on the floor? - here’s a nice demo:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspIq_pzPaw 

But this is for an instant evaporation with zero air turnover.  In reality, it would take place over many minutes if not a half hour and there’s going to be at least some air turnover during that time even with a closed door and 1 or 2 air changes per hour (as opposed to the 4-6 that’s generally recommended)

Now that I ponder this lack of information more, I’m wondering if one kid felt nauseous (for whatever reason), and they decided just to send the whole class to the hospital just to be safe (or to CYA, if you’re more cynical. 

But again, working in a vacuum here. Obviously, the school should be doing a full follow up with the amount of material, HVAC etc. all being scrutinized….but nothing in the media, so who knows.  I don’t think we will ever get more info on this case.

Rob Toreki


 =================================================
   Interactive Learning Paradigms, Incorporated (ILPI)
Training, environmental/occupational health & safety consulting
Ph: (856) 449-8956, Fax: (856) 553-6154, sales**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com
                                         http://www.ilpi.com/
Lab & safety supplies?  Visit https://www.SafetyEmporium.com/

On Feb 25, 2024, at 2:27 PM, Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU> wrote:

Re, the particular dry ice experiment, I use several cases in my teaching in which people died from doing this kind of nonsense when the ventilation was not up to removing the CO2 rapidly enough.  

I've thought about this kind of problem for decades.  And I've hazcom-trained teachers including science teachers in grade schools and high schools.  You can't ask them to do a risk assessment.  They don't know even the most rudimentary things about how the chemicals interact with our bodies, basic physics, PPE, or ventilation.  In fact, many of them have myths and misconceptions about health and safety that they also pass on to their students.


--- For more information about the DCHAS-L e-mail list, contact the Divisional membership chair at membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org

Previous post  |  Top of Page  |  Next post