Thank you Dr. Rechtin.  You have made a point that strengthens my position, in that what you said can be paraphrased as the old saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  Indeed, an insufficiently trained student could endanger themself by trying to extinguish a fire.  The other feature of an extensive training would be that fires can sneak around behind you or block your exit or suddenly get more intense.  This is why I suggest that in-case-of-fire training should be limited shutting down experiments (conditions permitting) and get out of the building (presumably to a prearranged assembly area where the instructor can make sure everyone got out).

Thank you very much,

Ben

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 4:17 PM Tammy M. Lutz-Rechtin <tlutzrec**At_Symbol_Here**uark.edu> wrote:

What the student thinks constitutes fire extinguisher training, may not be what I think it means. For instance, taking an online fire safety training that teaches the basics of PASS is very different than having hands on experience or intensive or specific training for the worksite or lab. I suspect most students are referring to taking a module online. 

Regards, 

Tammy Rechtin

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From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> on behalf of Jeffrey Lewin <jclewin**At_Symbol_Here**MTU.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2024 10:35:32 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Fire extinguisher training

 

Note, there is a typo in the citation:  DOI:10.1021/acs.jchemed.3c01299 (no "0" at the end).

It might also be useful to look at where the data came from:  Supporting information The survey appears to be of graduate students on safety training they received as an undergraduate, including their experience as an undergraduate researcher.

Of the 41% that received fire extinguisher training, only 13 percent actually discharged a fire extinguisher.

Personally, I would not oppose fire extinguisher training for anyone, but as Ben points out, in an undergraduate teaching laboratory the emphasis should be on safely evacuating the lab and how to notify emergency services.

The article has lots of other interesting tidbits on safety experience as undergraduates - using SDSs, using PubChem, introduction to RAMP, etc.

Jeff

Jeff

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 11:03 AM Benjamin Ruekberg <bruekberg**At_Symbol_Here**uri.edu> wrote:

Hello,

I was wondering how the group members feel about fire extinguisher training as a part of safety training in undergraduate laboratory courses.

A recent article in Journal of Chemical Education (DOI:10.1021/acs.jchemed.3c012990) indicated that approximately 45% of undergraduates were given fire extinguisher training as part of their chemistry laboratory safety training.

While this is useful knowledge in general, it does not seem relevant to undergraduate chemical safety training.  In case of a fire, students should not attempt to put out the fire, but rather turn off electricity and gas for their experiments (conditions permitting), pull the fire alarm, and evacuate the building.  It might well be argued that training in the use of fire extinguishers could be interpreted by some students as encouragement to use a fire extinguisher to fight a laboratory fire--constituting a training in unsafe behavior.

Thus, it would seem that the time spent in fire extinguisher training would be much better spent on important safety issues.

That is just my opinion regarding only undergraduate courses, not necessarily undergraduate or graduate research.  Am I missing something or do CHAS members agree?

Thank you very much,

Ben

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Jeff Lewin

Director of Chemical Laboratory Operations

Research Integrity Office

Laboratory Operations

205 Lakeshore Center 

Michigan Technological University

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