DCHAS-L Archives, Jun 6, 2025 - Re: [DCHAS-L] Legacy chemicals and old MSDSs

Ah, Corry, I see we are similarly cursed. We remember when the regulations worked so we know what is possible. Painful affliction, that.

The best hazcom (right-to-know) ever was in New Jersey for public employees. . If you trained there, you had to have your presentation and all your materials approved by the health dept.. And initial training was 4 hours, refresher every year was 2 hours. Class size was limited. There was a test at the end of both. If a teacher (or custodian, etc.) didn't pass, they had to do it again. And they enforced it. They found out Rutgers Art departments didn't do any of this so they barred any of the teachers from teaching. They had the school hire me and another trainer, and we both did back-to-back initial trainings for three days until all the art faculty and adjuncts were trained up and back in their classrooms. Achtung!

Then the state elected Whitman who stopped all this Public Employees OSHA stuff and went on to head EPA in time to tell all us New Yorkers that the air was safe after 9/11.

But I remember when the laws really worked for public employees in NJ. When teachers actually thought about this stuff, when trainers actually taught some basic chemistry even to artists to help them understand the issues. All gone now.

Monona

On Friday, June 6, 2025 at 08:50:59 AM EDT, Socorro Painter <corrypainter**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

Legacy chemicals and chemical tracking were problems at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) in the 1990's. Principal Investigators (PIs) lose their funding and have to close their labs. So the chemicals have to be disposed of as hazardous waste, unless the next PI using the lab accepts the previous PI chemicals. I am a retired employee of the Hazardous Waste Management Division (HWMD) and we did some innovative programs back then. First we started tracking all the chemicals called CHEMTRACK, from the time they arrived at the LLNL Receiving department to the time they were disposed of. Disposal can include actual waste disposal with a waste disposal company or taking the chemical to the Chemical Exchange Warehouse (ChEW). We have HWM technicians whose main job is to move chemicals from the PI lab to ChEW or from ChEW to the PI lab. MSDS are on the website so users can download them if they want to order chemicals from ChEW. Chemicals are also shown on the ChEW website so a PI can check if the chemical is available on ChEW before they buy them. Procurement has to be approved by a Hazardous waste analyst to make sure that we really don't have that chemical on ChEW or on CHEMTRACK. Sometimes they only need a few grams and they can easily borrow from the other PI. This also saves money!

We also instituted a waste minimization program so PIs don't order more than they need of any chemical. It would be nice if most schools and other institutions have a chemical exchange program so very little chemicals actually go to waste disposal. Another idea is to have a chemical exchange program in a smaller area like the San Francisco Bay Area. But this can involve more regulatory issues as the chemicals will be transported on the road outside the institution. In the future, some politicians may find a way to have a chemical exchange program in a small area where different institutions can bring or borrow chemicals. Perhaps they can be exempted from some regulations while being transported from the user to the Chemical exchange warehouse or from the warehouse to the user.

I am also interested to know how many schools, government agencies have a chemical exchange program of their own.

Corry Painter

Blogger

www.hersciencejourney.com

On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 9:47 AM Margaret Rakas <mrakas**At_Symbol_Here**smith.edu> wrote:

Because there is no money for hazwaste disposal....

On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 12:12 PM Stephen Taylor <stephen**At_Symbol_Here**labsafetyinstitute.org> wrote:
It’s so interesting seeing this discussion while we are at our safer science summit. There pandemic with legacy chemicals in k-12 schools.

Stephen Taylor, Ph.D.
Executive Director
The Laboratory Safety Institute
www.labsafety.org
Stephen Taylor | LinkedIn

PS. Be sure to take our Safer Science Self-Assessment to see how your School or University stacks up!

On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 10:50 AM Info <info**At_Symbol_Here**ilpi.com> wrote:
For questions 1 and 2 see the Compliance section of our SDS FAQ and the links therein: http://ilpi.com/msds/faq/partd.html

4. Can I throw away old or outdated SDS’s?

5. Where can I find an SDS for an old chemical?

6. What if I need an SDS and the manufacturer no longer exists?

7. When does an SDS need to be revised or replaced?

12. What are the penalties for non-compliance with SDS requirements?

21. Are we protected from liability if someone is injured because an SDS supplied to us is wrong but we had no way of knowing about the error?

So old MSDS’s if you can’t obtain new ones are fine, but ones that are no longer used or have been deprecated by newer editions should generally be kept as part of the employee exposure record - in a different file, not with the current ones.

For question 3, I’m not an attorney but IMHO I don’t think manufacturers can simply disclaim liability just because emoting is old or even if the product has passed through multiple hands. My understanding is that most product liability disclaimers printed on a package are there simply to scare folks off from suing and significant number are not enforceable.

The bigger liability question is probably using products in the workplace which are old (and therefore subject to degradation and other situations that could create a hazard), may have unknown hazards, no support etc. Especially if new concerns or handling practices about the material or others similar to it have come to light in the intervening decades, information that won’t be found on the outdated final MSDS.

Keep up the fight, Monona!

Rob Toreki

LabLocks™ - The first device that can lock out standard laboratory ball valves: https://www.safetyemporium.com/07400
US-Made NIOSH and FDA-approved N95 respirators: https://www.safetyemporium.com/safety-items/respirators/

Safety Emporium - Laboratory and Safety Supplies
https://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012

On Jun 3, 2025, at 2:26 PM, Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU> wrote:

I remember we had a long conversation some years ago about legacy chemicals,so hopefully there are still people on this forum who can give me some guidance on the following questions.

1. Can OSHA cite an employer who has old MSDSs in their hazcom or lab standard files for workers reference?

2. And can they cite if the old MSDSs are for legacy products if the manufacturer no longer makes the product or is out of business?

3. What are the legal issues associated with using products in the workplace for which the manufacturer no longer claims liability?

I'm desperate for some kind of legal or OSHA guidance on this for some theater shops where we have workers.

Monona

M. Rossol, President
Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., #23
New York NY 10012

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Margaret A. Rakas, Ph.D.
Lab Safety & Compliance Director
Clark Science Center
Smith College
413-585-3877 (p)

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