From: Monona Rossol <actsnyc**At_Symbol_Here**CS.COM>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Red gas identity
Date: May 25, 2013 11:01:24 AM EDT
Reply-To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Jeff, Yes, I'm sure facts are missing. But I think you are right about what it is they were describing as a red gas. I seen no way nitrogen oxides would be coming from that reaction.
I also just happen to know the other chemicals in Simple Green which don't change much, and they couldn't be a source either. I know the Simple Green MSDSs indicate different concentrations and purposes, but I've been watching their MSDSs for 15 years and also have their REAL formulas as filed in NYS under our complete ingredient law that was recently reactivated after a suit by Earthjustice. The full ingredient lists are significantly different from what was on their MSDSs. And they are all a groups of detergents and activators plus glycol ethers.. Usually the glycol ether is 2-butoxyethanol. But when it was pointed out that they had more of this toxic chemical in their cleaner than others, they cut the amount and replaced it with the propoxy- and pentoxy-ethanols. There's no data on these, but no reason to assume they have toxic effects much different from 2-BTE.
I wish people really knew how weak our laws are, how crappy MSDSs are, and how misled we are to believe we should accept as our only source of information a document written by the people selling the stuff to us. We wouldn't buy a car that way. We all are, as described by the circus people I grew up with, a bunch of Rubes.
From: Jeff Tenney <Jeff.Tenney**At_Symbol_Here**SDMYERS.COM>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Red gas identity
Bromine itself forms a red vapor when mixed with air.
Elemental bromine exists as a diatomic molecule, Br2. It is a dense, mobile, slightly transparent reddish-brown liquid, that evaporates easily at standard temperature
and pressures to give an orange vapor (its color resembles nitrogen dioxide)
Not knowing the source of the bromine (pool chemical or bromine gas) It would be hard to say if the simple green was even part of the problem. I would think it
is possible for bromine pool tabs to release bromine when mixed with simple green that has a PH of 9.5. To close a road for an hour? I guess if they poured the simple green into a large container of these tablets.
Some facts seem to be missing.
OK folks, the most common reddish orange-ish, or red-brown cloud would be of oxides of nitrogen. Anything from simple N02 to nitrogen tetroxide or pentaxide or anything in between (or a
combination therof). How U get it out of this mixture is difficult to say. Could the bromine (more likely a bromide salt or acid) have just been a catalyst?
In any case, if was NOx, then medically, delayed non-cardiogenic pulmonary edema (up to 72 hours after exposure) would be a concern, which sometimes has a sudden onset and is sometimes rather
Last time I had a lab accident with bromine is when we had an organic chemistry lab as undergrads in the basement of the new science building. The maintenance guys had shut off all the ventilation
system and power to the hoods, and nobody notified anybody. So we had about 50 chemical apparati cooking of HBr and when it became intolerable, everybody (myself included) panicked and evacuated, and nobody shut off the bunsen biurners so the whole mess continued
to cook of Hbr. Needless to say, our local HAZMAT guys were less than happy with us and our lab instructor when they had to come shut everything down in Level A!
OK, class. Below is the Google article about a mixture that created "a red smoke." The two chemicals were Simple Green and some kind of bromine pool chemical.
Could that smoke have been bromine vapor? Or what?
Simple Green is a couple of detergents and 2-butoxyethanol (at least this is what it is this week since it changes a lot). Any ideas on what was happening here?
HAZMAT TEAM CLEARS ACCIDENTAL CHEMICAL MIX IN COLUMBIA 1.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/columbia/ph-hazmat-team-clears-accidental-chemical-mix-in-columbia-20130522,0,6138930.story Tags: us_MD, public, release, injury, bromine, cleaners A Howard County Department of Fire and Rescue Services hazardous
materials team cleared a potentially hazard chemical mixture Wednesday morning caused by a cleaning crew at the Columbia Athletic Club. According to a department spokesman, the crew was dispatched to the 5400 block of Beaverkill Road in Columbia at 8:35 a.m.
after members of the cleaning crew accidentally mixed Bromine and "Simple Green," an all-purpose cleaner. The spokesman said the accidental mixture caused a red smoke, which was inhaled by one of the cleaning employees. The employee was taken to Howard County
General Hospital as a precaution, according to the spokesman. The incident caused a road closure for over an hour. The incident was cleared by 10:09 a.m., according to the department'sTwitter account.
Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist
President: Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.
Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE
New York, NY 10012 212-777-0062
If the power's out, ya'll should be out of the building anyway or at least not working with chemicals. And if your Fire folks are like my Fire folks, they have
electronic access to multiple (M)SDS resources on the rig, if it's an emergency causing the power outage.
I encourage my folks to have paper copies of the (M)SDS for the chemicals they use all the time, every day. And paper copies of the half dozen or so most hazardous
materials they work with. Typically, it ends up being maybe 12 or 15 hardcopy (M)SDS. Then to place a link on the shared computers to the (M)SDS database.
University of California, Davis
Birkett's hypothesis: "Any chemical reaction
that proceeds smoothly under normal conditions,
can proceed violently in the presence of an idiot."
Doesn't the requirement for (M)SDS access even during a power outage by default require paper copies? Or am I missing something?
Authorized OSHA Trainer
Laboratory Development Assistant
Campus Chemical Compliance Director
Department of Chemistry
Conway, AR 72032
Our MSDS FAQ has not yet been updated for GHS, but these two requirements do not appear to have changed.
Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012
The OSHA requirements of (M)SDS availability are not changing. You can make them available on line, as long as there are no impediments to access. For example,
no individual who ought to have access should have to go to a supervisor's office or seek help or permission from another to get on line and review one. (This is paraphrasing an OSHA representative presenting on the Hazcom 2012 implementation this week at
the AIHce in Montreal.) In addition, you must have some sort of backup function to provide immediate access to (M)SDS in the event of a power failure, etc., when access is needed.
On the issue of whether it would be acceptable to make available an Aldrich (M)SDS on sodium hydroxide when your NaOH is from Fisher, my less authoritative response
is that my impression of the HazCom 2012 changes would make that UNacceptable. But others may read it differently.
I am in the process of deciding whether to recommend that my college pay to subscribe to an (M)SDS service (ChemWatch) or download and store my own repository of
(M)SDS pdf's. I'd be grateful for your thoughts about the proper way to manage access to (M)SDS by employers.
Do we have to have paper copies storied in a physical shelf location, or is a site license to ChemWatch OK. Can I simply maintain an easily accessible link to a folder of downloaded pdf's on our
If I have a bottle of sodium hydroxide from Fisher and a downloaded (M)SDS for NaOH from Aldrich, does that meet the OSHA requirement?
Are others using ChemWatch, and is it a good system (worth the money)?
Are there other considerations I should be aware of as I weigh the $2000 yearly fee against the tedium of maintaining the system myself?
Thanks for your thoughts!
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